I also didn't really want to reply, but after reading all the posts here, I agree with many of the posters and feel I would like to give my opinion. A little background first - I have had rotts for a number of years. My first one being from full german lines, with a very high play and prey drive. Luckily with training, he was an absolute angel, but he did have an horrendous teenage period. I have had a few since (now having four) all with different temperments and personalities. I do not have any children, and rarely come into contact with children. I can only imagine what is it to be like living in a household with a dog I do not trust and have children around. In my honest opinion, he would be PTS, this I find difficult to say, as I love the breed and possibly if it were happening to me, I may not have the guts to go through with it. But from an outsiders view (which is always easier to say, I know) I couldn't have the dog in close proximity to my family, nor would I want to rehome it to someone else, regardless of how competant I think the handler/s to be.

I also run a small training club, where we have had dogs of 'iffy' temperment, and I think (purely from seeing different people with their own dogs) that to bring a dog back to being a trustworthy member of society takes a huge amount of time, effort, patience and understanding. With a family and/or busy lifestyle, are you able to provide this level of training? If you need any contacts for people within our breed that may be able to help you, please pm me.

Backtracking slightly, have you taken him to the vet to make sure he is not in any pain or discomfort?

On a rottie owners note, I feel for you, I know how wonderful this breed is, but you are not a failure, you will do what is right, both for you and Buster. But as far as I can see, your family has to come first.

I agree, I would not keep the dog, my children come first. I MAY consider the Xpoliceman, but you have to be totally honest with all concerned. When I first visited this forum, the first post I read was from a lady with a shar-pei who had a similar problem. He sounded much worse actually, he had bitten badly the woman's husband & gone berserk when the mid-wife arrived to look at the family's new baby. I posted that the dog should be PTS & many, many people disagreed with me. I have loved dogs all my life, I prefer dogs to some people, but there is no way I would keep any dog who showed this sort of behaviour. I would be devastated to have to have any dog PTS under these circumstances, but not as devastated if I passed the problem onto someone else who suffered the consequence of my uncertainty.

> if he was mine he would be PTS..  I would not take any chances by passing the problem on to others.
>

I have to sadly agree entirely.  As you say there are dogs with no issues whatsoever seeking homes.

> i have spoken to some one at a rescue and they have said they may have a suitable home for him, a husband and wife in wiltshire he is an ex police dog handler, they have no children, i may follow that route, see how it goes

I am sorry but I think you are clutching at straws, if you re-home this dog and in the future he attacks someone or worse how will you live with yourself. Bite the bullet my love do the deed and start the road to recovery.

I do agree with others that you shouldn't keep an untrustworthy dog around children but none of you have seen this dog, the way he behaves or met the family...he has not actually bitten so why all jump straight to the PTS answer?  I think someone with experience and understanding, along with the help of a GOOD behaviourist could help this boy.

Was it not mentioned that the Rott gets away with chasing the 15 yr old out of the kitchen...why was this behaviour not rectified the first time it happened???  Letting dogs of any breed get away with certain behaviours at this difficult stage is asking for problems.

You may be right Staff but this dog has seen a vet, has seen a behaviourist and is exhibiting irrational and unreliable behaviour. Too true we have not seen the dog but one has to trust the word of the owner who has explained in detain the problems and behaviour of this dog and asked for advice so she can come to a decision. We, like you have given our opinion.

Speaking to you, as one mother to another, go with your gut instinct on this one, not with your heart, please.
I have 3 children aged 6, 13, &  18.  They have grown up with dogs, we currently have 2 GSD's, 1 of them an ex operational police dog that would bite a burglar in a heartbeat, never, ever in the entire 9 years that he has been with us has ever even given any of my children a "funny look".
The fact that he has lunged at your daughter is entirely unexcusable & unforgiveable IMO, he's attacked a member of his own household. 
Close your eyes, clear your head, & like I say, go with your gut instinct on this one.

I don't know this dog and I don't believe an opinion is worth anything unless one is in the situation and has seen it first hand.  However, I do agree that any dog exhibiting behaviour as described should not be around kids.

IMO The dog needs a proper assessment by a fully fledged and reputable behaviourist before he is written off and condemned to PTS.  Only then could it be said if he can really be helped or not. 

It is also not unlikely IMO that the dog's behaviour has instilled fear into the family which is only going to make an 'iffy' dog worse. 

I am under no illusions that anything I can say will console you in anyway.

I do, honestly think its great that you have been so genuine in trying to find a solution for this 'problem' (if thats the right word) - and you should be commended for noticing this problem, and trying to sort it while thinking about all options thoroughly.

I think you do know what to do deep down, I am no expert- maybe the ex-policeman is a great idea? Surely if he is up for it then its best to find out than to never know- as long as you are sure that he will make the right decision should the dog not be tamed?
(could you not have it as a term of transfer of ownership that if he still behaves this way he is PTS not passed on to someone else again?)

I also think its important that you know that IT ISNT YOUR FAULT HE IS LIKE THIS - your backround of loving family dogs shows this- but should he attack anyone- you would be responsible, after all, you are aware of this now.

xx

> IMO The dog needs a proper assessment by a fully fledged and reputable behaviourist before he is written off and condemned to PTS.  Only then could it be said if he can really be helped or not. 
>
> It is also not unlikely IMO that the dog's behaviour has instilled fear into the family which is only going to make an 'iffy' dog worse. 

I totally agree with you.
Dogs do pick up on fear and pushy/bossy/strong minded dogs really take advantage full stop, especially a male dog of that age.

I keep thinking about this poor dog. Were the vet checks really thorough? Did they just feel over him or did they do any tests? Are they sure he doesn't have hip, eye, hearing problems that would make him worry about pain or take him by surprise when children suddenly appear behind him?

I find it frustrating that many posters on here always say "don't worry, its not your fault, some dogs are just bad".

Dogs are what we make of them and tiny issues should be properly addressed as they come up in the puppy's life. Some dogs are particularly easy going but some can be challenging at times and its down to the owners to see what could be a problem developing and avoid it or take steps before it becomes a danger.

I'm sorry if this upsets the OP but please face up to the fact that if his behaviour isn't due to ill health its down to his up bringing. If you are a good owner you will learn from this and never make this mistakes again.

Please understand my concerns. On a forum (perhaps this one) a regular poster went through at least 3 dogs rehoming or PTS each one before 2 years old because they bit her children or showed aggression to other people and she thought they might attack her childeren. Every time people on here were supportive and encouraged her to go out and get another dog, with not one word suggesting she actually socialise or train her new puppy, or that she was clearly not fit to own any dog.

I wasn't going to post on this thread, because I've never had a large breed, and never had the experience the OP is going through. However, one of my best friends is a Rottie - and he's an absolute charmer.

But the above post really made me mad. Sorry Karen1, but there ARE occasionally dogs that are just plain bad. The OP has had experience of this breed for many years, and must have gone through the teenage challenge several times before. What she's telling us is that this time it is different. The dog's responses are more challenging, and outside her previous experience.

What it all comes down to is that the family are scared of the dog. With any breed that's a big problem, with a Rottweiler it's a disaster waiting to happen. Being blunt, what is more important - the life of this dog, or the life of a child? Yes, she could pass the dog on. That's the easy way out, and the most irresponsible. She could spend time and money on more health checks and more behaviourists (I think the OP wrote that he had already been seen by one), but what if whilst that was going on, the dog attacked the child? IMHO there is only one answer, sad as it is - and I think that, in her heart of hearts, the OP already knows what that is.

Dogs are what we make of them and tiny issues should be properly addressed as they come up in the puppy's life. Some dogs are particularly easy going but some can be challenging at times and its down to the owners to see what could be a problem developing and avoid it or take steps before it becomes a danger.

I'm sorry if this upsets the OP but please face up to the fact that if his behaviour isn't due to ill health its down to his up bringing. If you are a good owner you will learn from this and never make this mistakes again.


I think your statement is rather harsh... as has already been said the OP is an experienced Rotti owner, if it was simply down to  his upbringing , I would think over the last 15 yrs or so,  she would have had this problem before,

Sometimes no matter what we do, or how  hard we try, Nature   takes over Nurture

Reading through some of the OP back posts, this is not the first time he has lunged.... he has also lunged for no reason at her sons friend..

If all health  related issues have been 100% ruled out,   there is only one safe way to deal with this  boy....sadly!!!

I agree lincolnimp with your post. I find it unhelpful and cruel of karen1 to pass the blame onto the dogs owner...it easy to blame others when you are not in the situation yourself.  As you rightly say, the other dog at the house does not have a problem. Previous dogs owned by the OP  have not had a problem. This is nothing like any case where there is a series of badly behaved dogs dispensed with by the owner. Incidentally I have no recollection of such an event on this board.
The OP has already gone down the behaviourist route, and the veterinary route, so has done her very utmost to find a solution. I also agree that some dogs can just be "like that". I appreciate that there may be a health problem, but examination by the vet looks for physical problems, and the more obvious ones have been excluded by the vet. I suppose there is always the possibility of a brain tumour ( my aunt had a border terrier who got progresively more aggressive, then was diagnosed with one), but even if the OP got a brain scan and either confirmed a tumour, or exluded it, what would be gained? She would still have an aggressive, untrustworthy dog. She would still have a terrified daughter.
I think the possibility of rehoming with the police dog handler has potential, provided they do have the experience that is claimed. One thing that I can say with one hundred percent certainty is that the OP is doing the right thing by removing the dog from the family.

As a note to the OP........it is only Karen1, one person, who has stated that you may be responsible for the dogs behaviour. There are many others with much more experience on this thread who have posted the opposite opinion. I suggest that you believe the opinions of the majority, and ignore the unhelpful remarks made by Karen1. You obviously do not deserve that citicism.
Cathy

I don't know this dog and I don't believe an opinion is worth anything unless one is in the situation and has seen it first hand.  However, I do agree that any dog exhibiting behaviour as described should not be around kids.

IMO The dog needs a proper assessment by a fully fledged and reputable behaviourist before he is written off and condemned to PTS.  Only then could it be said if he can really be helped or not. 

It is also not unlikely IMO that the dog's behaviour has instilled fear into the family which is only going to make an 'iffy' dog worse

I agree entirely, and that is exactly what I was trying to say earlier in the thread, but didn't do it so well.

We can only go by what has been said here by the owner, and although she has said she has had the breed for years, we do not know if all of her previous dogs were bitches, nor if they were all simply easy going and easy to train.

I am sure we also know that the majority of behaviourists out there are simply useless. One of my puppy owners had spoken to a behaviourist who was willing to come and see her for puppy biting, for goodness sake, and charge her £200 for the pleasure! I am sure we also know that not all vets are good,a or if they are, they are only human and open to mistakes just like the rest of us.

Yes, the OP needs to seek further, proper professional advice, yes the OP should be extremely cautious regarding her dog with the children until then, and yes, it is entirely possible the dog should be put to sleep. But it is also entirely possible that what one person interperets as a certain behaviour, another, perhaps more knowledgable one, wouldn't. I think it is irresponsible to suggest a dog be PTS with onyl one persons opinion of the behaviour to go by and without even seeing the dog, knowing it, or having first hand knwoledge of the vet and behaviourist that have seen it.

> I'm sorry if this upsets the OP but please face up to the fact that if his behaviour isn't due to ill health its down to his up bringing.

An incorrect and potentially damaging statement.
Having run a training class for many years (and inadvertantly becoming specialist in large breeds with problems) I have found that some dogs like this can have their temperament traced back to the day they were picked up as a puppy. Mother couldn't be handled, father hiding under a table etc etc not a good prognosis for their poor offspring.
Some poor dogs have their destinys written for them before birth. A terrible shame and no fault of the OP and certainly not helpful stating that it was. 

To Jackbox:  May I say I very much agreed with your very well reasoned posts.

the police handler seems like a viable option, he'll be equipt to deal with large breeds and training issues. you've made the right decision i think

> Were the vet checks really thorough? Did they just feel over him or did they do any tests? Are they sure he doesn't have hip, eye, hearing problems that would make him worry about pain or take him by surprise when children suddenly appear behind him?

this is why i'm not advocating PTS. on paper its a simple decision, i think for all of us- dog goes for child, game over. however we did not see it, and we cannot be certain of the quality of the examinations/ behaviourist that the dog had.

to the OP, we've all given reasons for pts and other reasons for re-homing, and they are all very good reasons. at the end of the day your seeing him and know him. i don;t think anyone presumes you'll make this choice lightly

> I'm sorry if this upsets the OP but please face up to the fact that if his behaviour isn't due to ill health its down to his up bringing

thats in no way certain, i have met dogs in my life that were simply 'wired wrong' as you sometimes get people who are wired wrong. socialisation is definately the absolutely central point in the creation of a dogs temprement but sometimes it does go beyond that- undetectable physical issues etc can have dramatic effects or simply personality, accusing the OP of bad ownership is unfair given that you don't know the dog or the OP.

> On a forum (perhaps this one) a regular poster went through at least 3 dogs rehoming or PTS each one before 2 years old because they bit her children or showed aggression to other people and she thought they might attack her childeren. Every time people on here were supportive and encouraged her to go out and get another dog, with not one word suggesting she actually socialise or train her new puppy, or that she was clearly not fit to own any dog.

if it was this one its certainly changed a lot... at the moment there is a thread advocating that someone not get a dog at all because they don;t have a fence- rather less of a cardinal dog sin than screwing it up that badly 3 times

> Yes, the OP needs to seek further, proper professional advice, yes the OP should be extremely cautious regarding her dog with the children until then, and yes, it is entirely possible the dog should be put to sleep. But it is also entirely possible that what one person interperets as a certain behaviour, another, perhaps more knowledgable one, wouldn't. I think it is irresponsible to suggest a dog be PTS with onyl one persons opinion of the behaviour to go by and without even seeing the dog, knowing it, or having first hand knwoledge of the vet and behaviourist that have seen it

couldn't agree more jackson

> the police handler seems like a viable option, he'll be equipt to deal with large breeds and training issues. you've made the right decision i think

It would be heaven sent if only this were true, police officers are trained to use a dog that is stable in temperament, stability is all important and dog with an aggressive streak would be destroyed as it would be unsuitable for police work and not able to be rehomed. So when it comes to it, this police dog trainer is probably less able to deal with this situation that a normal owner of long standing experience in the breed.

Think it is probably wrong to suggest this is a training issue, that is unlikely given the OPs experience.

i hope it's a training issue, my thinking was that perhaps a different training situation might suit the particular dog better. there are certain dogs that do better with men or with women, with more strict discapline, less discapline, clicker training or even aversion training (though i can't really condone that) etc. what i ment was that perhaps this might suit the particular dog better. i don't think the op said that the dog had had any probs with adults? (forgive me if i'm wrong), so perhaps being out of a situation with children he might come along better. additionally the attention that could be focused on him (rather than on 2 kids and another dog as well) might make a difference. i think that as long as everyones eyes are completely open it might be worth trying, however as i also said above i think that sometimes you just get dogs that are a bit wrong somehow. i really hope this isn't the case here, and its certainly not something people who've never even seen the dog can judge.

as to the OP's experience, she mentioned having rotts before but i don't remember her mentioning whether shes had young dogs, or indeed dogs with behavioural probs. if you;ve had nothing but impecably (and easily) trained dogs your whole life then a behavioural issue can blindside you a bit. i've not really had this prob before and i'm about to take on a boy with a dislike of other dogs, it's going to be a learning experience even after literally my lifetime of having dogs. my point is even the most experienced dog person can get lost sometimes.

at this point i think we've about exhausted the relevent advice we can provide and we can all just offer our support and hopes that things work out whatever the OP decides

Please understand my concerns. On a forum (perhaps this one) a regular poster went through at least 3 dogs rehoming or PTS each one before 2 years old because they bit her children or showed aggression to other people and she thought they might attack her childeren. Every time people on here were supportive and encouraged her to go out and get another dog, with not one word suggesting she actually socialise or train her new puppy, or that she was clearly not fit to own any dog.

THIS definately wasn't supported here. You have the wrong site and I find it hard to believe anyone would support that 

I find it frustrating that many posters on here always say "don't worry, its not your fault, some dogs are just bad".

Dogs are what we make of them and tiny issues should be properly addressed as they come up in the puppy's life. Some dogs are particularly easy going but some can be challenging at times and its down to the owners to see what could be a problem developing and avoid it or take steps before it becomes a danger.


That is utter rubbish to say dogs are what we make of them. Yes it is a big factor BUT NOT ALWAYS.   Some is genetically in them. Some lines produce the same nasty dogs in all different breeds. That is genetics not up bringing.

> That is utter rubbish to say dogs are what we make of them. Yes it is a big factor BUT NOT ALWAYS. Some is genetically in them. Some lines produce the same nasty dogs in all different breeds. That is genetics not up bringing.

An example of how owners do make a difference. There is a breeder of very dodgy GSDs (I don't agree with their breeding choices) fairly local to me, I've seen some grow from puppies. Very clear warning signs as the pups grow up of trouble ahead but owners (many have owned GSDs before) don't notice, say its normal for the breed, say they'll grow out of it, think its funny to see their adolescent dog being aggressive towards people and animals. When the dog is fully grown and the behaviour is out of hand they might try and do something about it but inevitably the blame lands on the dog.

Yes, genetically the disposition is there. One owner paid attention to the warning signs from scratch, they had to work extremely hard but problems weren't allowed to grow into big ones. Their dog has grown into a safe reliable pet (as far as can be expected from any dog) but she's very aware that she has to keep on top of training.

Another man rehomed one of the out of control dogs at 18 months and has managed to turn it around, it will never be a normal dog and it has been a very long hard struggle.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the OP should continue struggling with her dog if it is too dangerous and neither do I think she should rehome for someone else to sort it out unless she can find a truely experienced and committed person who knows exactly what they're taking on.

I'm sure the OP loves her dog very much despite the problems but I want everyone reading this forum to think ahead when they buy a puppy. Can they cope if it turns out to be one of the more difficult dogs and if not should they go for an easier breed or not have a dog at all?

Edit to add all the "bad/evil" dogs I've known from pups I've seen warning signs, I've asked the owners in the nicest possible way if they're concerned when Rover does this or that. They don't want help until the dog has been a problem for months or years and usually they want to hear that its not their fault.

> unless she can find a truely experienced and committed person who knows exactly what they're taking on.
>

Do you want to try out your theories with this dog and some small children in your own home?

Yes, genetically the disposition is there. Glad you are finally changing your post from what you said earlier as that was incorrect.

You said earlier 
Dogs are what we make of them and tiny issues should be properly addressed as they come up in the puppy's life. and that is not accurate.

Yes I totally agree people buy these big powerful breeds and have no idea what they are letting themselves in for in the long run, I support that people with young children should have a group of particular dogs at all as the power they have is just not a risk I think families should take BUT you can't blame the nutty dogs always on people. Yes there are a huge % out of control due to bad training and just neglect.

Someone was talking about tieing the dog up..  that is a particular thing I think crazy, to tie a guarding breed up only encourages guarding.

There is no issue here that I can see. It is your children or your dog. No contest. That is the harsh reality of it, and you need to deal with it and so does your husband who needs a reality check. Chaining him a garden is intensifying the situation and as he gets older, given the slightest opportunity he will attack more aggressively as he gets older, and with his power possibly kill, certainly maim.

And what life is that for an intelligent dog? He is becoming a dangerous dog and not safe around your own, let alone other peoples children, that is hardly fair is it on your children and other peoples.

You cannot pass this problem on and not know the end of him or what cruelty could happen to him. You have to deal with this now! There is no dog born that is worth your childs face, and never will be. These trainers and behaviourists are not magicians. He attacked, unprovoked, and your daughter should rightly be scared of him. Have the dog put to sleep, because he certainly will be once he has scarred her for life. She will have to be the brave one then, instead of you and your husband taking the sensible and brave step now. In a very short time he will attack her, that is a racing certainty.

And when you get another in years to come have him castrated at an early age. A Rott more than any other breed.

And what breed do I have and love to bits? Rottweillers. This is a shocking situation waiting to happen and you need someone, like others, to be completely blunt. You must deal with this and do it now.

Just an added note to the above. Responsible dog ownership means making tough decisions sometimes. So does responsiblie parenting. That is the hard facts in the choice we make when we choose owning dogs and having children.

This dog will attack your child, again. Please act now and prevent this.

Has the original poster got any more news on whats happening?
I personally hope that the ex policeman takes him on.

This dog will attack your child, again. Please act now and prevent this.

There is no proof what so ever to show this Golden lady and its not a true statement, many dogs have gone on to live happy lives if they can be retrained and homed in the right place and have never attcked since their first incident, rescues of these sort of dogs are proof of this, I 100% agree she should act to protect her family from any further problems but to instantly label this dog a man eater or a attacker is completely unfair and unjust IMHO.
We give serial killers, murderers and much worse people a second chance, surely a dog is worthy of the same treatment where rehoming is a possibility?

From reading your posts I think you have already decided what you want to do.
I have had rottis and from what you describe if I am reading you right then the decision you have come to is the correct one. he is a powerful dog and as you know could do alot of damage.
You have tried a behaviourist and the vets and neither have worked. Your husband burying his head in the sand is silly and pointless, how would he feel if Buster attacked and damaged your daughter. He would have to live with that fact for the rest of his life as so many other have had to do in the past.
I firmly believe that most dogs attack when provoked but if he has been given a clean bill of health and you were present and your daughter did nothing wrong thenI think you have to face the sad decision that sooner or later you are going to have to let him go. But do it BEFORE he injures or kills.
Good luck

I think my main concern would be that we don't start going down the road of seeing dogs as a disposable 'item' that we can all just get rid of the minute they make a mistake. I know that might sound totally wrong but if we are all truly honest with ourselves, how many of our dogs have snapped at someone at least once in thier lives? Probably most of them but none of us would think straight away after one incident that we should get rid of them or have them put to sleep, we would look much deeper into it than that.

Just because a dog snapped at someone (for reasons we weren't there to see) does not necessarily mean that it will launch a full blown attack and kill someone. To give an example of what i consider to be extereme measures to take after a dog snapped i recently read of someone who had her Rottweiler put to sleep after he killed a his owners cat but under the circumstances at the time (both were left unattended in the house while owner was at work) i can't honestly say that i would put my Rottweiler to sleep if she killed my cat - i'd just learn to perhaps not leave her locked indoors unattended with a cat while i am at work all day.

Obviously each case if different just like each dog is different but to some people it may seem a little extreme to just get rid of a family pet after the slightest mishap - the rescue centres would be crammed to bursting if we all took on such a cynical solution.

"As a note to the OP........it is only Karen1, one person, who has stated that you may be responsible for the dogs behaviour. There are many others with much more experience on this thread who have posted the opposite opinion. I suggest that you believe the opinions of the majority, and ignore the unhelpful remarks made by Karen1. You obviously do not deserve that citicism.
Cathy "

Pinklillies,

I am not looking for a fight with you by any means but i feel it is a little unfair to completely dismiss & discredit another members point of view just because it does not suit our own agendas. Karen has as much right to express her views as we do, regardless if we agree with her or not.

Personally i don't agree with her completely but she has raised a very valid point - we don't know how the OP raises her dogs so can not say with any certainty that she hasn't inadvertantly made mistakes.

karen you seem to be assuming that the OP has no clue whats shes doing and bought this dog on impulse:

> I want everyone reading this forum to think ahead when they buy a puppy

> They don't want help until the dog has been a problem for months or years and usually they want to hear that its not their fault

the OP is not looking for us to coddle her but to offer constructive advice. she has had this breed for many years and is experienced in training them and living with them. shes also not asking for help out of the blue, shes been posting about this particular dog since his behaviour started.

even if you notice strange behaviours in a pup from 8 weeks what other than trying to train them to be good dogs (which we all try and do anyway) what else is the op ment to have done? its a large, powerful breed, i'd imaging the OP will have been watching for and working on any aggressive behaviour since puppyhood anyway.

AND even if the op's training as a pup was in some way lacking recriminations are certainly not doing much good to the situation now. i'm sure shes feeling bad enough without being told shes a terrible owner for raising her dog in a way thats been effective many times before for her.

For goodness sake 'dogs that make a mistake' and 'disposable items' are belittling this young powerful dogs launch from 3 foot away to attack this young child, who is quite rightly now frightened and rightly so.

Stop making excuses for this behaviour as 'retrainable' and that the perfect home is waiting for him. ITS NOT!! The Dogs Homes ARE full to bursting with dogs of good character and temperament that have done nothing to deserve their fate. I know, I work in Rescue. Try ringing Rottweiller Rescue and see what they say, they have been full to bursting and have been forever, with nice temperamented Rotts with 50/60 more on the waiting lists in each area as have all the all-breed rescues.

This young dog has tried to attack this child TWICE!  Get real and be responsible. He is powerful, young and has made his intentions quite clear. Its sad, but it happens, for goodness stop flaffing about and sort it out before someone gets seriously injured.

 

> how many of our dogs have snapped at someone at least once in thier lives?

er... 1 out of 7. and he stopped himself mid action. and i was causing him excrutiation pain at the time (trying to clear a very badly infected ear). snapping dogs are not something that we have ever tolerated, they are taught as pups that no mouths whatsoever except for kisses

Goldenlady,

There really is no need for you to be so condescending, rude and patronising. I do not recall speaking to you in such an unnecessary & uncalled for manner & would apreciate you did not do it to me. I am not 'bellitling' anything so kindly don't put words in my mouth. I am just offering a differing opinion on the situation - as opposed to shoving it down people's necks.

relay, dunno if you mis=clicked there but you sent that reply to me- unless golden lady comes back to the thread she'll not be told that you responded to her. just a wee heads up :)

Im not being anything other than shocked that everyone cannot see the seriousness of this situation. There is noone alive who loves dogs more than I do, but not at the expense of a childs possible disfigurement or possible life. I shouldn't be shocked, but I still am. He has made his intentions clear as bell and there is no magical home out there waiting to turn this dog around, neither can this poor family, who have explained the situation so well,  afford the time to look for one. How quick do you think a Rott can take a babygate down? 

This is why these attacks happen, people do not act quickly enough when such a dog reacts like this. And its always the innocents, those that cannot defend themselves, that suffer, and the suffering must be unimaginable.

Neither do I mean to sound aggressive, just urgent. 

i have to agree with you
i also have worked in rescue and todays throw away society think nothing of getting rid
i sympathise with the rottie owner, but the kids come first
he is a timebomb waiting to go off, she has breed experiance,she is not a first time owner
if he was mine ,i,m afraid he would be PTS

> Im not being anything other than shocked that everyone cannot see the seriousness of this situation

what on earth makes you think we don't regard this as serious? a long and raging debate like this hardly indicates indifference does it? it's being taken very seriously. the options are simply being weighed up. as has been said previously we have not observed the dog or his behaviour, as such is it really reasonable to pronounce judgement on him and encourage the OP to have him killed?

i would say that were the dog mine and the situation was as i imagine it to be from the info given i would seek a second opinion from another vet and another behaviourist but if they found no reason for his behaviour then yes, i would view the responsible course to be PTS, but thats a lot of ifs that would be answered based on first hand experience. i don't believe anyone has said to the op not to consider putting him down, only other possible options have been presented, which when it comes to the life of a creature you have chosen to take responsibility for is appropriate.

may i ask what you ment by:

> I shouldn't be shocked, but I still am

Roxieandbust, the original poster has a responsibility for the behaviour of her dog - as have we all, as owners of dogs, be they large or small.

But her first responsibility is for the well-being of her daughter and I agree with the other posters who say that for the child's well-being, the dog cannot stay in the family.   The child is frightened of the dog now - would you keep a child frightened for the remaining years of her childhood?   Even if she is never attacked by the dog again, the fear that the dog might will remain.   And the rights of children come before those of dogs.

And as for the dog?    If I were the owner, if I could find a home where it could be guaranteed that it would not come into contact with children, that it would receive firm but loving training/behaviour treatment, then I would feel that I had done the best by my dog.   If I couldn't, even though it might break my heart, I would have to take the last, most brave and loving thing that anyone of us can do for our dog when there are no other roads open - I would have to take it to a vet, and stay with it whilst it was put to sleep.   That is responsible ownership,

Whether you like it or not, the life of a child has precedence over the life of a dog - and so it should be.

[url=]
There is no proof what so ever to show this Golden lady and its not a true statement, many dogs have gone on to live happy lives if they can be retrained and homed in the right place and have never attcked since their first incident, rescues of these sort of dogs are proof of this, I 100% agree she should act to protect her family from any further problems but to instantly label this dog a man eater or a attacker is completely unfair and unjust IMHO.
We give serial killers, murderers and much worse people a second chance, surely a dog is worthy of the same treatment where rehoming is a possibility? [/url]

This is not a one off incident... remember the OP has been having problems with this dog for a while now... not forgetting it is not  the first time he has launched himself at a child,  dont forge the has also gone for a child that is not related to the family.

This dog has ben deemed healthy.... unless he can be proven his behaviour is down to health...  their is not option (in my opinion)   the dog for his own safety and others needs to be PTS... 

Would you rather pass a dog with such problems on..and have no control over his future, or see him  at rest... knowing he will never end up in the wrong hands,   I know what my answer would be , as hard as it is.

i agree jackbox but i do think that a second opinion from another vet might be valuable first just in case. the dog might have been feeling better the day it was examined, the vet might have been having an off day and missed something, the dog might be particularly stoic etc. when it comes to a life or death decision i don't think its wrong to be certain.

I did NOT dismiss the point of Karen1 Relay, I merely pointed out that her opinion was in the minority. I stand by what I say. It is totally and utterly untrue that all dogs behaviour iis caused by either physical illness or a bad upbringing.  And please could you spell my name correctly.

i am not going to tell the op what i think she should do with her dog as i think she already knows what to do but i will just say that i have had a rottie bitch for 8 1/2 yrs and never has she ever show this kind of behavior it is not standard behavior for this breed.

my husband has had a male rottie before we were married and he was also not like this both dog have been loving loyal and great with kids.

we also have 3 bullmastiffs and before had a GSD so have been with large breeds for many years this kind of behavior can not be tolerated with or without children involved and i believe some dogs are doomed from the start with irresponsible breeding of unstable parents.

if i were in her shoes it would be hard to make the decision but my children and others around me would have to come first and fear is no way to raise a child.

Relay:   but if we are all truly honest with ourselves, how many of our dogs have snapped at someone at least once in thier lives?

I've had Boxers for all my life and not one has......... never! My friend breeds Rottweilers and hers never have....ever!
I've seen other boxers (who's breeding I could have guessed) try to bite.... they were genetically predisposed to do so.

It would seem that the OP has gone of to think about her next move and I wish her the best of luck.
To those of you who are advising this poor lady to deal with her dogs aggressive outbursts in the home -  may I suggest you should volunteer to have this dog yourself and put your ideas into practice.

>Many dogs have gone on to live happy lives if they can be retrained and homed in the right place and have never attcked since their first incident.

I don't have kids, just me and OH and we rescued a GSD 10 years ago which had fear aggression.  

We worked constantly with her for years and for a period of time had the help of a dog trainer, Dave Olley.  Dave used to run a growl class for problem dogs which was invaluable to bring out the underlying triggers and recondition the response.  She had dog and people aggression but she wasn't what Dave or we would call a 'nasty' dog, she just had problems.

It took a very long time to bring her round and for a few years she was muzzled.  She saw kids and dogs as a soft target, she would lunge and bite and although she could draw blood, her severity of bite was mild compared to what a dog could really do if they meant it.  She would run up behind too.  Although she had typical fear aggression, there were other things going on in there too, possessiveness, territorial issues and a high prey drive. 

Aggression in itself can become self rewarding; if it works for the dog, it can become an ingrained habit that then can manifest itself in other and non-threatening situations.  In other words it can take a life of its own even though it never started out that way.  We might say that dog was not provoked but why did he still act in an aggressive manner. 

There are many different types and forms of aggression and they differ in severity and cause and although I will still maintain that a dog showing the behaviour as described should not be around kids, I would not rule out the possibility that this dog could be successfully rehomed with knowledgeable and experienced people with no kids.  That's if they can be found.

Our girl turned into a normal soft easy going dog that is a pleasure around people but it took around 5 years to get her anywhere near not seeing every man, child and dog as a potential target. 

The moral of this story is that there are people out there that do work at turning these dogs around.  However, our situation is totally different to the OP; we don't have kids, we weren't putting anyone else in danger and we had all the time in the world to devote to our dogs.    

> The moral of this story is that there are people out there that do work at turning these dogs around.  However, our situation is totally different to the OP; we don't have kids, we weren't putting anyone else in danger and we had all the time in the world to devote to our dogs. 

I like the idea of the dog having a second chance, but as many have said none of us have seen how bad the behaviour is - it could be a lot of noise & bravado from a young male going through the 'kevin' stage or the incident described could have been deadly seroius with luck that adults were there to stop it.

My rescue dog went for one of my toddlers, it was a warning bite (no skin broken-but contact made), and highlighted food aggression, we worked on this and in the 9 years after that 1 incident we have been able to trust the dog as much as you can trust any dog around children.

It is obvious that the OP is taking this matter seriously and I feel that if new owners are fully aware of the problem then re-homing could work out, but on the other hand, if the OP has decided that Buster is beyond help I think we all can understand that she has done what she sees as the most responsible thing and will not have come to the descision lightly.

I have had GSD's, Retrievers, Collie and Rotties and not one of them have ever snapped, not once.

This dog is muzzled out and has gone for one child out and now turned on his own. I feel so sorry for this lady who owns him as despite all that, her husband says 'He doesn't mean it'!!!

She knows the right thing to do, the only thing to do. She is clasping at straws now for reassurance and the vast majority have given her that. There is only one safe decision for all concerned, including the dog. 

I would not rule out the possibility that this dog could be successfully rehomed with knowledgeable and experienced people with no kids.  That's if they can be found.

I think it would be practically impossible to guarantee that this dog never came into contact with children and I for one would not be prepared to take that risk. Children are all around us and it only takes one unforeseen encounter for a tragedy to happen - children can be as unpredictable as dogs can.

>Many have said none of us have seen how bad the behaviour is - it could be a lot of noise & bravado from a young male going through the 'kevin' stage or the incident described could have been deadly serious with luck that adults were there to stop it.

Yes I agree; one cannot gauge, especially from posts on a forum and on a subject so complex, one person's perception of a dog trying to kill may be another's of a dog being an overzealous and vocal hooligan pushing the boundaries or vice versa.  However, in the absence of more information, it is best to air on the side of caution especially where kids are concerned.  

Whatever the OP decides to do; it really is her decision.  I hope that whatever decision she makes, she will still feel able to post on this thread without fear of being judged!