you don't feel the need to travel to stud dogs

yes i think there is a need to travel a long distance to a stud dog if necessary, but im lucky in that there is one suitable a few miles away

Most breed clubs Code of Ethics state stud dog owner should be partly responsible for puppies welfare and help wherever possible.

From Hayley123  - im not being assy but its your choice to keep a breed that requires expensive health tests, there are no required health tests for the BT so i dont have to add that into my breeding costs

Most of us I'm sure have their own breed because it is a dog they prefer and initially it all started off as a pet and then got the 'bug' for either showing, obedience or just for the love of their dogs.  If they require specific health screening that we don't want to do or can't - do we swap breeds - no of course not, we just accept it as a fact of life and only want the best possible start in life for our puppies and in generations to come.  Breeding from your bitch is a far from easy way to make money - I like many others on here have actually lost money in the past - without taking into account the everyday expenses of keeping my dogs from 'cradle to grave'.

I have just been looking at the KC website - they suggest that BT's have their eyes tested  for HC as they are on the 'B' list for breeds where they may be potentially a problem.  Would you consider screening your dog before using him at stud?

how do your pups know where to toilet and where to sleep?

we dont paper train puppies

I have just been looking at the KC website - they suggest that BT's have their eyes tested  for HC as they are on the 'B' list for breeds where they may be potentially a problem.  Would you consider screening your dog before using him at stud?

yes if it became necessary i would , if the result didnt come back as clear he wouldnt be used, how many people on here health test their dogs have results that come back ok not great and still breed their dog/bitch? loads ill bet

I have just been looking at the KC website - they suggest that BT's have their eyes tested  for HC as they are on the 'B' list for breeds where they may be potentially a problem

all i can find about that on the kc website is that hc is under investigation in the border terrier, nothing about suggesting testing your dog for it of course i could be wrong and would be grateful if you could copy it on to here please

The reason for having the Schedule B list (under investigation) is to alert breeders to a potential problem and to encourage them to have their dogs eyes examined regularly under the scheme. As a result, information can be collated and analysed as quickly as possible. In this way, an emerging condition can be detected early and dealt with properly before it becomes more widespread.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/312

Hi Hayley

So you don't paper train puppies, gosh!! that a new one for me!!!!.  How do your puppies know where to go for the toilet?

My pups start paper training at 2wks old, Yes, 2 wks!!! and they are paper trained and partly house trained i.e. going outside before they leave my home.

I rear my pups in the house, but I do have a lot extra electricity as I do use a heat lamp and also a heat pad.

As for not keeping in touch with the "prospective new owners" after the litter is born, informing them of the pups progress (this is before they have picked their pup), and sending photos, I do this and much, much more for my buyers. So yes, do have extra on the phone bill.  I really can't understand why you do not do this as the buyers are so excited that their pup has been born.

I could go on and on, but won't, but I  do think that £80 is very little for a stud fee for a BT. especially a well bred one.   I also have terriers and know what our stud fees can be and its a lot, lot more than £80, I never even paid that little when I first started out in dogs and breeding.

Just one more point, my breed is also on the k.c. list that an eye problem is under investigation, guess what, I have had mine tested, just for my own peace of mind.

I have now retired from showing and breeding, but still like to keep in touch with most things that are going on.

marguerite

Again I agree with what you are saying here.  My puppies are encouraged from an early age to 'go' on newspaper and not their bedding.  I'm always amazed at how easy it is to train them - even with a relatively large litter.

I have been keeping my new owners in touch even before conception!  I have people prepared to wait months for their puppy from one of my bitches - she came into season too early for my liking to mate this time, so we're waiting til next time.  It's good to be able to build up such a relationship even before you meet them.

Stud fees have generally always been the price of a puppy - so were you selling them that cheap Hayley?

Also, I believe the puppies should have access to your other dogs - if you have them.  If you can't trust them, well I think there's a problem.  I wouldn't want to buy a puppy that has been crated for at least 6 weeks - not too much different than a puppy farm.  I hope I don't come across as too harsh, but when puppies often go to homes where there are children I think temperament should be paramount in everyones books.

Ridgielover: Having owned several top quality dogs over the years which have been used at stud, I've always expected to be kept up to date about the litters' development, well-being and welfare.
Perhaps if the stud dog owner pops round and only charges £80 then they may feel they aren't paid enough to take resposibility !!!
Certainly another world to me.

but im lucky in that there is one suitable a few miles away   Gosh that IS extrordinarily lucky.

> how many people on here health test their dogs have results that come back ok not great and still breed their dog/bitch? loads ill bet

Not testing or ignoring poor results isn't good for any breeds future.

My bitch was spayed because one of her health tests came back not as I would like. Wouldn't have stopped me breeding from her if I'd used a tested male and got the puppies tested however decided that at this time it's not a route I want to go down.

and you seem to have an untypical view/expereince of your breeds temperament based on previous posts.

this following statement was written by A R-W in her book
the breed is sensitive despite the apparent self assurance. a young male in particular can become unsure of himself when between twelve to eighteen months or so. it is important not to squash him while he is growing up. puppies need socialising early, meeting lotas of people and dogs. a scolding is sufficent reprimand for a border. harsher treatment would break the dogs spirit. after a scolding, with dignity and upset, a border can sulk for days, by which time the owner feels more guilty than the dog.

you know this lady and speak highly of her, so was i really that wrong?

>dont try and make me out as a cruelty case by saying my bitch would need more food than normal and that im not giving it to her,

That's not what I'm say at all! What I'm saying is that to get an accurate knowledge of the costs involved you need to take everything into account. Any expenditure over the normal amount, that is due to the existence of the litter, should be included. Yes of course you had the food already - but you'd have used more than usual because of the litter and had to buy more, sooner than otherwise because of the litter. So it's an additional cost that needs to be taken into account, to avoid your paying unnecessary Income Tax.

>it didnt need additional heat the whelping room is in doors not out

So is mine (the dining room actually) and I find that, unless the litter's born during a heatwave, a little additional heat in that room is beneficial.

>and for what reason would the stud dog owner need to be kept up to date about the litters welfare?

As a stud dog owner I'd take a great interest in how my boy's puppies were developing, and I'd be livid if I was kept in the dark. How else am I going to know if there are any problems? My breed club also makes it very clear that the welfare of puppies is just as much the responsibility of the stud owner as the bitch owner, and I expect yours does too.

I have read this post in silence as I have had nothing constructive to add... but would like to put across the point of view from an owner of a dog used at stud

Aside from my breed club stating that I am as much responsible as the bitch's owners... I want to see the pups.. I want to see what 'type' of pups my dog produces to certain types of bitches... I would wish to know of any health problems that may have cropped up etc..  The welfare of those pups born to my boy are as much my resposibility as the owner of the dam...

I have a stud litter due in around 3 weeks.. the girls owner has kept me updated with HER health and progress, and I expect her to do the same when pups are here.. I will also be going to visit pups at around 6weeks..

I have another bitch owner who is still waiting to find out if her girl is in whelp.. and she will be giving me updates too... and again.. I will be going to see the litter..

I am responsible... it was my dog that was responsible for the pregnancy... and I will be there for the bitch owners (who are more experienced than myself) (65years breeding between them)

When my girls have produced litters.. only one breeder didnt come to see the litter before they were homed.. she was judging in the US at the time.. but she was kept updated all the way through, in whelp, whelping and weaning etc.. e-mailed photos of the litter etc..

Its common practice.. and respect for the stud owner ;-)

ps.. A freind of mine jumped on a plane to Norway to see her Stud litter

I've visited all my stud pups except the AI ones in the States and Finland - I did however visit the pups in Germany sired by one of our stud dogs.

I think that a valid expense of breeding , especially a working breed, is the expense of training - sometimes private training when necessary, to prove that your breeding stock has achieved in its chosen field.

This would include a share of the running costs of a car to go to working tests and shows etc    In our case, also the expense of a purpose-made car as well, without which we could travel to prove our dogs.

Also, basic maintenance and vets fees etc until the bitch is of a suitable age to be bred from.

When all this is taken into account, there wouldn't be much profit - more likely a heaving great loss!!

Jo

> Stud fee £80.00
>

Hmmm. Most reputable Border Terrier owners charge £250+!

> new bedding, newspaper bought to read so 0
>

Most breeders I know buy at least 1 new large piece of Vetbed! £20+!

Your poor puppies - no nice soft bedding and no heating. :(

In Response to Ells-Bells

It is exactly the reason our breed club have asked breeders to check kidney function, to see if there is a problem. 

Our hip status is also pretty respectable, but because the odd high score has been known we hip socre to make sure they stay that way.

Same with eyes if you don't look you won't find.

In Response to hayley123

There is world of difference in a breed authority saying a male pup especially may go through a sensitive phase (even if outwardly displaying typical terrier confidence), to implying the breed is nervous and flighty.

who said no heating?

> Electricity and phone bills 0

Or does your electricity come from a wind generator in the garden? ;)

> There is world of difference in a breed authority saying a male pup especially may go through a sensitive phase (even if outwardly displaying typical terrier confidence), to implying the breed is nervous and flighty.

And even aggressive, if I remember rightly!

lots of terriers are aggressive with adult dogs they dont know, try buying in an adult terrier, i have, if the new one starts on one of the others they all pile on, ive seen it plenty of times

Unfortunately at work we recently put to sleep 3 terriers that did exactly that, and managed to save the one they attacked. Their owner knew that that behaviour was intolerable, though it broke his heart bringing them in one by one.

terriers can be quite nasty when they want to be, last august we were at a show i had my 2 1/2 yr old bitch and 3 1/2 yr old on seperate leads they absolutely hate each other they started going for each other so i put my leg in between them and the 2 1/2 yr old latched my leg bruised it and made it bleed and i still have a big blue mark from it now

and last yr we let out the 3 1/2 yr old border and the russell they were fine for about 10 mins then they were off eventually we got them apart my partner had the border up in his arms the russell jumped up and tore a chunk out of the borders side, so yes i would say terriers are aggresive

Not seen that behaviour with the Border Terriers I know, it is why they are popular as a second breed with many other breed owners, including Elkhound owners, and especially gundog owners (who generally don't like/tolerate dogs that squabble).

They are known to be one of the most sociable terriers as they are meant to run with hounds, "Characteristics
Capable of following a horse, combining activity with gameness." and not as the hunt terriers are carried by a huntsman or kept with a terrier man to use when the fox has gone to earth.

A border with a scrapping tendency is not a useful dog for the job and the method of doing  it that it was bred for

> the russell jumped up and tore a chunk out of the borders side, so yes i would say terriers are aggresive

Yes that kind of scrapping is fairly typcial of some terrier breeds/types but should not be for Border Terriers, and certainly should not be tolerated among your dogs at home.

>i would say terriers are aggresive

They're known to be 'sharp' but any serious aggression should, as with all other breeds, be dealt with and not tolerated. Borders are (or should be!) one of the most amenable and sociable of the terrier group.

> try buying in an adult terrier, i have, if the new one starts on one of the others they all pile on, ive seen it plenty of times

My friends Mums Border terrier is an absolute gem around other dogs including Staffs, Dobermans and my Elkhounds, and she was taken on at five years of age, because my friend was looking for a dog that would get on well with dogs she might meet or who may visit from time to time, and kids.

I am sorry but in your position I would be having a serious look at my breeding plans to improve temperament.

the nasty border hasnt and wont be bred from, the russell is used for working so shouldnt of thought she will be and my other bitches are fine with other dogs just not the nasty border

we bought a five yr old bitch that was fine with all our dogs she was so laid back it was unreal

they absolutely hate each other

so which of these are you breeding from? surely it should be neither?

>so which of these are you breeding from? surely it should be neither?

To be fair to Hayley, it's not that uncommon for two otherwise very good-natured bitches to loathe each other, and once bitches seriously fall out they don't generally get over it. Most people find that everyone, including the dogs, is happier when one is rehomed.

Especially when they are close in age as these are with just 6 months between them in age if memory serves right.

> they absolutely hate each other

No, it's not unusual for two terrier bitches that know each other to be like this - but there's no way that any working terrier breed should just attack another dog without warning -  and I speak as the owner of 2 Patterdales, who has had long experience of both Borders and Parsons.

Most people find that everyone, including the dogs, is happier when one is rehomed

we are in the process of re homing the older one, but its not an easy thing to do even if she was fine with other dogs its not easy and its a shame as ive done well at terrier shows with her

try buying in an adult terrier, i have, if the new one starts on one of the others they all pile on, ive seen it plenty of time

I completely disagree temperament is more to do with linage.

I have bought in over 7 years. 4 older bitches, one x 13 months, one x 14 months one x  2 years old, and 1 x  at 2 1/2 years.

Never ever had a bit of bother with these girls .  mines all run together , play together and sleep together.   

Any I have bought I have let them alll meet in the garden, no problem ever.

Only fight I have ever had was with 2 I bred myself.

> and last yr we let out the 3 1/2 yr old border and the russell they were fine for about 10 mins then they were off eventually we got them apart my partner had the border up in his arms the russell jumped up and tore a chunk out of the borders side, so yes i would say terriers are aggresive

and that behaviours accetable to you?!? not all terriers are vicious and i don't think that kind of behaviour should be tolerated from any breed! goodness me, i got upset when my girl had an adolesent, bloodless and mainly vocal, squabble with her mum.

and that behaviours accetable to you?!?

no its not acceptable but theres nothing i can do about it, its not my fault they dont get on, yes maybe if id had them from pups it would be my fault but they were both bought in as adults

can i ask why you chose to put together older dogs that didn;t like each other then?

because we didnt know that they didnt like each other, they were fine when one was on either side of the run divider