> That's not quite how it works. :-) It's vital that a dog is allowed to give a warning that it's not happy with a situation, so that the owner can remedy that by training it to be more relaxed in that situation. This starts from baby puppy-hood.
>
> How many times to we hear "he just bit me with no warning"? The first question I'd ask would be "Has he ever been corrected for growling a warning?"

Very true JG, puppies need to be handled & given good experiences from the getgo, then these "no warning"situations never occur

>> You go to take it, it growls at you since it knows you will back off, and then you either get bit, taking it away, or dont take it away, and have not so great consiquences.
> That's not quite how it works. :-) It's vital that a dog is allowed to give a warning that it's not happy with a situation, so that the owner can remedy that by training it to be more relaxed in that situation. This starts from baby puppy-hood.
>
> How many times to we hear "he just bit me with no warning"? The first question I'd ask would be "Has he ever been corrected for growling a warning?"

Exactly.  I'm not saying that I would allow a dog to continue guarding things - of course not.  But that growl tells me that there is a problem to be remedied through training and/or management.  If I don't have that warning, I won't know there's a problem until I'm on the wrong end of a snap or a full bite.

I'm fortunate in that I took Soli on after just over a years' study on dog behaviour; and much reading around it as well, and with help from the experienced people I mentioned.  If someone had taken her on without that backup, and with the absence of warnings that she initially had, I am 99% certain someone would have been seriously hurt already and that she would be dead.  The consequences for correcting warnings are far too serious to do it.

Last night proved to me that encouraging her to warn me has paid dividends.  She woke me up at 2.30am growling very loudly at me for no apparent reason; she seemed to be in a bit of a trance, growling only at me (I was in bed, she was on the floor).  Because she was unwilling to take the warning to the next step, because of me backing away and my work with her over the last year and a bit, I didn't get hurt.  I was able to send her out of the room and secure her in the lounge for the night.  This morning she's back to normal; and because she made such a point of warning me off, I know that something is very wrong and can take steps to rectify it (thyroid test, chiropractor, maybe general blood panel) without the situation moving straight from "fine" to "she bit with no warning" to having her PTS.  I know which I'd prefer.  If I'd tried to correct her?  As I said before, I'd be in hospital now.

I would like to know though, how the lure method works to correct a dog?  Or do you just shut your eyes and ignore the bad and only focus on the good.

The thing with lure and reward or clicker training, or any positive reinforcement training is that you actually teach the dog to do something so that if a dog is doing something inappropriate you can ask it to do something else instead of "correcting" it for doing something wrong.  Either that or if the situation is too intense then you can distract or remove from the situation and then work on the issue that needs work making the dog more comfortable in that situation. 

trainers who use positive training often use punishment but it just doesn't have to be physical, for example I use time out vey successfully, or if for example I have a dog who jumps up, I will withdrw attention or even withdrwing eye contact can be enough for some.  I teach them that I wan them to sit to greet and then I have something to reward and they learn that this is a better way to greet someone as they get what they want doing it that way.

Training that is done by "correction" or punishment as I see it and more importantly as the dog sees it generally doesn't teach a dog to do things it stops a dog from doing things.  I'd rather teach a dog what I want them to do and that it is more fun and rewarding to do it that way.  Modeling, ie pulling a dog into a down by their collar or pushing their bottom down to make them sit, is unpleasant at best for them and if you look at a dogs body language while you are doing this to them, it will tell you that they don't like it.  I have NEVER seen a dog be comfortable with this method of training.

I don't understand why it would scare you that someone would listen to their dog and back off when they are uncomfortable, it scares me that people ignore thier dogs discomfort and then go on to punish it for telling the person that it was uncomfortable.  No one is saying you then just leave the dog to growl and not let you near certain things.  You address the issue by making it feel that it doesn't need to warn because their is no threat and make it comfortable with the things that it was previously worried by.  This means the dog learns to trust that you will listen to him and that he trusts you making a completely different relationship.

I would suggest that if you tried lure and reward to get your dog to lie down for a year and a half and it didn't work that you were either doing to incorrectly or that there was a very good reason that he didn't want to lie down like maybe something was hurting!

I really don't understand where the attitude that people who reward their dogs behaviour somehow only have dogs who will work for a "cookie" and that people who use punishment have dogs that are just working because their handler says so.  My dogs are always rewarded for good behaviour, I don't work for free and I don't see why I should expect my dogs to either, just because I have can MAKE them do something doesn't make it right to do so!  You have a small breed try punishing a a 50kg dog for doing the same things and you might not be quite so successful.  Just because I reward my dogs for good behaviour doesn't mean they won't do something without a bribe, once they understand a behaviour the reward is just that a reward and varies from food to toys to verbal praise to a chase, all sorts.

I believe if a trainers timing is good enough to use punishment then they are capable of using reward based training to teach the same things, which will not only mean the dog is likely to learn quicker but will have more trust and respect for the handler and be a happier dog for it.  I know which I would choose every time.

I don't think anyone on here is saying they are perfect and don't get irritated or sometimes get impatient with our dogs, but I think the majority of us are aware that at those moments we are not teaching are dogs anything and are just being impatient people as people sometimes are :-)

>>You have a small breed try punishing a a 50kg dog for doing the same things and you might not be quite so successful<<

I have a small breed RIGHT NOW.  I have never said, that I have never had larger breeds, and that I dont know ppl that have larger breeds as well.

My aunt, who owns and breeds dobermans since 1972.  She also uses what you call compulsion method.  If you use compulsion method (as you call it) you also reward.  It isnt about just correcting a dog.  You dont yank a dog by a collar 24/7.  She has had many successes with her dogs.  They are still protective of her, and her house, like she wants, but she doesnt have to worry about a single thing when it comes to her dogs.  She can move around her house, do whatever she wants, and never gets a "warning" from her dogs.

Cuda a male doberman, was the gentilest dog.  My mom had him, when my sister and I were babies.  Never got bit, never any problems in regards to aggression.  Used compulsion.

I dont know where people think that compulsion method has no rewads.  You do reward good behaviour.  But, you dont let bad behaviour happen, it isnt ignored. 

Joy, the dog that was recently PTS (because of failing health, not aggression) had her shoulder pop out when she went downt the stairs.  She feel, and hurt herself.  Yes, she wimpered, and yelped.  But she never growled or bit.  We took her to the vets, and they didnt even muzzle her when they put her shoulder back in.  No pain meds before the procedure, she got some after.  He (the vet) popped her shoulder back in, and she didnt bite.  We knew how to hold her down, and he popped it back in.  If she was allowed to get away with things, as a pup, then the outcome could have been completely different. BTW she was 44lbs. My mom is 90 lbs. 

>>I would suggest that if you tried lure and reward to get your dog to lie down for a year and a half and it didn't work that you were either doing to incorrectly or that there was a very good reason that he didn't want to lie down like maybe something was hurting!<<

She was in pain for a year and a half?  And it didnt show up with anything else?  Hmmmmmmm, I must be completely blind to not see a dog in pain.
I went to a trainer, who uses lure method, and this trainer could get every other dog to lay down.  She come to my dog, and even she couldnt get her to lay down. 
Could it be, that the dog didnt want to do it?  Should she not be made to lay down?  Sorry, but after a couple weeks, of training, now if I say lay down, it works. 

Casie, my other min pin, during training is wagging her tail, and doing the min pin dance on release.  I would call that happy.  As soon as you say "youre so smart" she gets going.  But does she break the command?  No.  Because she wasnt released yet. 

When Casie was attacked by a pit bull, she of course bit the other dog when she was in its mouth.  But once up to safety, she didnt bite anyone or anything.  Even when the dog was jumping at her still, she didnt try to go after it.  Here is this dog, with several puncture wounds, having a person check her out, and isnt bitting.  I am happy with the result, of her, even though she was in pain, and hurt, and just had to fight for her life, she didnt retaliate on the humans.  Didnt bite us, didnt bite the vet, didnt bite anyone.  Didnt growl.  Nothing.  She wimpered to let you know she was in pain, and thats where it hurts, but nothing that would make me fear this dog.

What I am trying to say, is both methods have their pluses.  And both methods have their cons.  But, when worked together, is when they work.  Ok, having my one dog lay down for lure, didnt work.  So I used something else.  But you know what, in the ring, with a piece of bait, she will show her heart out.  I dont just pop the collar to make my dog do things.  I do reward the good, but DONT ignore the bad.

>>> I would suggest that if you tried lure and reward to get your dog to lie down for a year and a half and it didn't work that you were either doing to incorrectly or that there was a very good reason that he didn't want to lie down like maybe something was hurting!<<
> She was in pain for a year and a half?&nbsp; And it didnt show up with anything else?&nbsp; Hmmmmmmm, I must be completely blind to not see a dog in pain.
> I went to a trainer, who uses lure method, and this trainer could get every other dog to lay down.&nbsp; She come to my dog, and even she couldnt get her to lay down.&nbsp;
> Could it be, that the dog didnt want to do it?&nbsp; Should she not be made to lay down?&nbsp; Sorry, but after a couple weeks, of training, now if I say lay down, it works.&nbsp;

Dogs hide pain VERY well.  Part of Soli's aggression was pain-based, and it took me just shy of 6 months to realise.  By all accounts she was happy, sound and pain-free; it just happened to be one particular set of circumstances, a total one-off, that made me realise there might have been something else wrong besides resource guarding.  Got a chiropractor out and she has come on in leaps and bounds since - she had a number of vertebrae, and the whole pelvis, out of line.  Which is why the chiropractor is top of my list after last night.  Prior to the last visit, Soli was also running for 90 minutes in a one-to-one agility class every week, and running for two hours a day without demonstrating any pain.

> My aunt, who owns and breeds dobermans since 1972. She also uses what you call compulsion method. If you use compulsion method (as you call it) you also reward. It isnt about just correcting a dog.&nbsp; You dont yank a dog by a collar 24/7. She has had many successes with her dogs.&nbsp; They are still protective of her, and her house, like she wants, but she doesnt have to worry about a single thing when it comes to her dogs. She can move around her house, do whatever she wants, and never gets a "warning" from her dogs.

Great that your aunt has dogs that obey her.  But personally, I don't see the need to use compulsion methods to acheive that effect - especially with a sensitive breed like a dobe.  Heck, if I were to even try with my male he would shut down on me - I tried once to simply guide him through the weaves by flat collar and lead at an agility class, and he refused to work for me for the rest of the night, even for food (and he is the world's biggest chow hound).  Yes, it's hourses for courses, but I firmly believe that the vast majority of dogs respond far, far better (and with far less risk of undesirable consequences) to positive training methods.  Personally I don't see the need to use compulsion when there are positive methods out there.  It is also possible to have a house hold where you can move freely and do as you wish without warnings or being worried for safety.  My girl's problems are down to poor ownership in her previous home - had I had her from a puppy, as I have had my male, she would not feel the need to warn me as I would have set out clear boundaries for her, again using positive methods.  That's how I live with my boy - and I can handle him however I wish, even at the vets and so on, and I have never needed corrections to acheive that.  He's far more likely to behave himself for a reward than for the threat of a correction.

Cuda a male doberman, was the gentilest dog.  My mom had him, when my sister and I were babies.  Never got bit, never any problems in regards to aggression.  Used compulsion.

I dont know where people think that compulsion method has no rewads.  You do reward good behaviour.  But, you dont let bad behaviour happen, it isnt ignored.

I used to train like you. For many years. Then I stopped and now clicker train. ANYBODY who meets my dogs can tell which have been clicker traiend and which haven't, as there is a HUGE difference in how the dogs behave. In short, the clicker trained dogs are not only happier, but much, much better at learning new things. Having seen the difference I will never, ever use compulsion again. Maybe you too should try clicker and see the difference? I think it's fair to say nobody can REALLY know what "the other side" is like unless they have tried BOTH.

What makes me a bit mad, is that people say (on here) that my dogs are unhappy, only behave because they fear me, chain collars are wrong, they way I train my dogs is wrong, etc.
I have tried the lure training, and have been talking from my experience.  No one on here, has seen my dogs, therefore can not say that they are suffering or unhappy. 
I have used what has worked.  I didnt start with compulsion, I used lure.  I got her to sit, with lure.  I got her to bait nice in the ring with lure.  It was her down, I couldnt get her to do that on lure.  I placed her in a down, and used the collar to guide her (on a dead link - not with a tight chain).  I have been saying, that you got to mix and match.  One method, can not always be used. 

This is supposed to be a place for healthy debate.  I have noticed, that on several occassions, when people differ from the norm, it is jumped on.  Not just with my posts in this topic, but other peoples threads as well. 

Maybe I will try clicker training on a new dog.  I am not going to untrain my dogs, to retrain them.  That wouldnt be logical.  When I start to train a dog, there is a point where a little bit of everything is used, so I can figure out what works best for the dog. 

I am afraid, people have this image, that I am choking my dog, to behave, thrashing her about with corrections, and hurting this poor little 11 inch dog.  Which is simply not the case.  All the different training methods, when done properly, can have fantastic results.  But, again, not everything works for every dog.

A typical training session, is where I work my dogs, and if they do good, they get a treat, or verbal reward.  A correction doesnt always have to be a pop on the collar, which is really only used (with me anyways) if there is something bad in regards to safety.  My dog runs to the road, its going to get a pop with the collar.  A dog doesnt know, that running onto the road is dangerous, and it could kill them.  If its a sit on recall, however, and it isnt done right the correction is usually "Come on, straighten up" or something to that effect. 

I wouldnt say, that I train complete compulsion method, and I wouldnt say I have abandoned lure training.  It is a mixture.  But through examples, which I have given for things, it seems I guess, that all I do is pop the collar.  Which isnt the case.  My dog got a pop when she growled, and it turned into that I was wrong for doing so. 

I realize, this being a UK forum, that things are done differently, in the UK than Canada.  I first joined the forum, to learn about showing in the UK, although to find out my dogs cant be shown in the UK, but I stayed because of the valuable information I have gained through different topics.  And maybe someday, I will have a natural earred min pin, whom I can get UK Championship on.  The differnces in dogs alone in the different countries, amazes me.  In a good way.  But, I do know, on this thread, that a lot of people think that we North Americans use dominance theory to train dogs.  That we look to Cesar Milan to teach us.  That is a wrong assumption to make.  Maybe it is part truth, but it isnt the whole truth. 

It seems that this whole debate has got a bit personal, and maybe everyone needs to accept that, as Crespin suggests, different methods suit different dogs. I've never really thought about training dogs until I joined this forum, and I've learned a lot, so thankyou everybody.

That doesn't mean that my dogs are untrained - I just didn't think about how I did it. I expect them to have good manners, and they do. I guess that thinking back, it's because I did reward good behaviour and tended to ignore the bad, but there were occasions when, for their own safety, I used compulsion. For example, I work with horses and my dogs are with me at the stables all day. When the puppy slipped into a box with a horse that I knew had an intense dislike of dogs (almost certainly through a bad experience as a youngster) I didn't try and tempt her out with a kind word and a treat, I grabbed hold of her and slung her over the door. If I hadn't she would certainly have been kicked and very badly injured if not killed. After that, I made sure that I was watchful, and didn't let her in there again. Now she accepts that whilst it's OK to be around any of the other horses she just doesn't go near that one. Dogs are far smarter than we often give them credit for.

I am 5ft and 8 stone and own a bernese mountain dog and a newfi. I have never used any form of prong collar or chock chains. My dogs have their gold citizern award badge and walk perfectly to heel. I achieved this with hard work, patience and time (def needed with a one brain cell newf). I have met a lot of owners who want quick fixes and immediate results without putting in the time and effort. I have not posted for ages, but this is close to my heart. A  dog needs time and patience and this should be considered before bringing a dog into your life. Takes cover with tin hat on!! :) 

Lol I can relate to that about the one brain cell with my Newfie. He is just so lazy on his walks unless he spots a river or any ditch with mud :) He is a bit touchy with some male dogs but is pretty good really.
I use a harness with my boy which is great and I've never had a problem using one yet apart from trying to grab him once when he was on a run and I went flying :)
Now if only I could teach him to clean, use my Dyson and cook !!!

Maybe I will try clicker training on a new dog.  I am not going to untrain my dogs, to retrain them.

Why do you think you'd have to UNTRAIN them? Surely what they know they already know and don't need to be taught again? I.e. once they walk nicely on a lead, the know how to, and don't need a chain to check them. If they know how to sit or down, they know it and will do it by voice command, not force. Or are you saying that your methods haven't worked yet so your dogs are still being taught the basics? Very confused here. But if and when you need to train something NEW, try a kind method -you might be pleasantly surprised. :)

Oh gosh.  I remember leaning over trying to get a stubborn crease out of a shirt I wanted to wear that day ... my iron hit a much more sensitive part of the body.  :-(  

Crespin,

I belong to a U.S. Cairn terrier forum and I have to say that is my impression - choke chains and prong collars and "illusion" collars seem to be the norm.  The popularity of Milan seems to be a big reason now why these techniques are still very popular, sadly.

Hi RJ, I read some of the posts but not all of them. The way we each train our dogs very much depends on what suits us and our dogs and what we want from our dog, the type of personality and relationship we want to develop.

I would hate to own a dog who was fear/pain/punishment trained, they are totally different in their personality.

But some people would hate to own a dog who is positively trained.

I think positive training is for people who are interested in what a dog is, how they think and preserving and utilising their canine assets. They see dog ownership as a privilege and their role is to serve the dog through training and handling the dog in a canine relevant way. These are the dogs who actually do exceptionally well in agility/obedience competitions.

Pain inflicting type of punishment training suits people who want human companionship, interested in the dog to serve ones own companionship requirements which is basically traditional dog ownership.

Most people adopt some level of balance.

AS for the actual electric shock and prong collar.

IMO many people want quick fix solutions. They get a pup and they want it to behave straight away like an adult dog. The electric shock and prong collar are to cater for the desires of such people.  Developed in the USA I think where they have created a dog ownership problem by legislation against their so called cherished  freedoms and liberty of their population. Many cities and states forbid the walking of dogs of lead even in parks.  So how do you walk an energetic dog on lead who can never be let off to have a run?   Working hours over there are high as is the dog population. Dogs are crated for long hours while owners are at work and then are expected to walk nicely round the block in the evening on a lead...how can this be achieved?  ....buzzz yelp! What a good dog! Many housing associations have restrictions on the heights and type of garden barrier, fronts are open plan, backs restricted to 4ft high chain fencing. How do you stop a dog barking at the neighbours dog or jumping the fence?  Many don't even have a fence so how do you deal with that?  Supervise the dog? no, you just go fit an  invisible fence! Buzzz yelp! problem solved.

These are not training tools! They are created not with the interest of the dog at heart but for quick fix convenience, and extreme training solutions in a world that is increasingly incompatible with man and mans best friend! And it is this direction we in the UK will be following if we do not make the effort to preserve our liberty!

She can move around her house, do whatever she wants, and never gets a "warning" from her dogs.

We have four dogs, (giant to small), all trained with positive methods - and there is nothing that I can't do with our dogs. One was a resource guarder when we got him (food bowl), one is a potential resource guarder (food and toys) and yet, we are having absolutely no problem with them! We can take anything away from them, we can move anywhere we want, remove them from rooms, sofas etc. And no, we never get growled at or even bitten either!

She was in pain for a year and a half?  And it didnt show up with anything else?  Hmmmmmmm, I must be completely blind to not see a dog in pain.

Absolutely possible! Dogs hide pain well! How many people do you know that have back pains or other pains and you would never know unless they told you? Well, the dogs can't tell you and I would never assume that I know everything about our dogs... including whether they are in low level pain or not! It is perfectly possible that your dog didn't want to lay down because he was uncomfortable somewhere! It is also possible that he didn't want to lay down because he was insecure about something, e.g. the environment, people around him or even you... The down is one position that I never force a dog to do as the fact that they don't want to do it means that something is amiss somehwere - be it a medical problem, a mental issue or simply the fact that the trainer may not do the actual training right...

Yes, some dogs do well with compulsion... the one thing that scares me is the fact that compulsion training stops the dog from communicating as he gets punished for expressing his thoughts/emotions/feelings (growling, barking, refusing to do something etc...) and that could potentially make a dog very dangrous!

Vera

>>Yes, some dogs do well with compulsion... the one thing that scares me is the fact that compulsion training stops the dog from communicating as he gets punished for expressing his thoughts/emotions/feelings (growling, barking, refusing to do something etc...) and that could potentially make a dog very dangrous!<<

I correct my dog from guarding.  She just cant do that, I dont accept it. 

If she is in pain, do you think I correct them from expressing pain?  NO. I want to know where my dog hurts.  I want to know what makes her uncomfortable.  But let me tell you, I can take whatever I want, whenever I want, from my dog, and I better not get a growl from her.  If I have to take something from her, it is for safety reasons.

I was replying to the post, where the poster said she would let her dogs growl over the food, etc.  Her post, made it sound like her dogs were running her.  That if they didnt want to do something, all they had to do was growl and she would back off.

And to say my dog is scared of me?  Sorry, but you dont know me or my dog, and what you are implying is the farthest from the truth.  She is a happy dog.  She is well cared for (more cared for in some ways, then others care for their dogs).  And I have seen scared or timid dogs, and I am sorry, but my dog isnt, even though it may be hard for you to believe.

I trained my dog different, than I guess the normal is in the UK, and then I get flamed for it.  Well, if you sit back, and think, I wonder how it would be if the tables were reversed.  That it was you, who did something that a majority of people didnt like, would you like to get flamed over and over again.  Would you want to throw your hands up, and say whatever I give up?  There is no way of stoping this flame? 

This is suppoed to be a board of sharing, and such.  Sorry, but 30 plus posts on "oh you bite, you dont know what the heck you are talking about" and "you train your dog cruel".  This forum isnt about healthy debate.  Its about, if said person doesnt believe exactly like I do, there is something wrong, lets beat them down and make them change to just like me. 

Crespin if you feel like that, what on earth are you doing on a UK forum? If you want people to agree with choke chains and ear cropping (which, after all has been illegal since the 1800's here!) you clearly need to go to a different one. And don't forget that people Google to find information and OFTEN come up with CD as a result. If they get the impression a choke chain is the way to go and then start going to a training class, there's every chance they will be made to feel irresponsible as the class most likely won't allow chains. Far better to inform people of what is the norm HERE. I was on a US based breed list and could not stand how the majority there used electric collars for training and felt it irresponsible NOT to, so I left and stuck to UK ones. Simple as that.

My first post, was about not agreeing with shock collars, and prong collars.  I said I used chains.  It then started a debate on training methods. 

Other UK posters have said they use chains, but yet, havent been flamed. 

I joined the forum, because I wanted to learn more about the UK and its dogs.  I wanted to show my dog, in the UK to get international championship on her.  Wanted to learn terms, and ways things are done.  I am the person, who wants to know what I am getting into before I go.  If I had no idea that cropped dogs were not able to be shown in the UK, and MOVED there, how stupid would that be?  Very.

I agree with a lot of things, on the forum.  But, I will not let someone tell me I am being hurtful to my dogs, and the way I trained her to lay down, and corrected bad behaviour is somehow stupid, barbaric, etc.  This topic wasnt about training dogs, it was about your THOUGHTS on electric/prong collars. 

And ear cropping, sorry if I have a cropped dog.  But have I pushed EAR CROPPING as a subject....NO.  Have I said, that EAR CROPPING is the only way to go?  NO.  Even in my avatar, to try and stay away from a ear cropping debate, have been of puppy pictures before she had her ears done.  The pictures in my blogs, well, why cant I brag, because as a whole, I think my dog is beautiful.  I dont say the UK is wrong for banning cropping, because I couldnt care less about a ban in the Uk on cropping.  Thats what the UK wants, fine.  But, I am not going to appoligize for living in a country where it is still the norm, and it upsets you. 

BTW, I wasnt just talking about my posts here, I have noticed a lot of other topics where a poster has been flamed.  And the posters were from the UK.  Where one aspect of it, was honed in on, and it turned into a long thread about how stupid the poster is. 

>what on earth are you doing on a UK forum?

Can I just remind some of you that this forum may be UK based, but everyone (no matter where they come from) are welcome to take part and offer an opinion.

Reading this thread, it is clear to see that some members believe that their way is the only way to train dogs. It is also apparent that anyone who does not agree with these members and their methods, must be wrong. The one thing I have discovered over the years is that there is no right or wrong way to train a dog. There are different ideas and techniques and it is down to the individual on which ideas they use and what works for them and their dogs.  Please keep this in mind before you post and have a little respect for other peoples point of view. Please keep your comments general. Flaming and personal attacks are not necessary.