Add to that Vets hate breeders.  When asked if I breed I have to qualify and explain what a breeder should e.  I am pretty sure the majority of the general public think all breeders are commercial and just a necessary evil if they want a puppy.

Agree there Brainless, when I had my litter, at their vaccs check the vet was amazed at their health, vitality, and lack of worms   she told me most pups she sees are nowhere near as healthy and clean as the ones I'd bred, in fact some are so poor it's pityful.  My reply was that if you breed a litter it should be the healthiest, best bred litter ever, otherwise why bother to breed? 
She had been looking for a pup (not my breed) and had seen so many backstreet breeders and puppy farmers and was ready to give up.  I was able to direct her to the breed clubs (she wasn't aware of them!) and to the breed club show which would be an education ;)  It's a small start, but hopefully ripples will form.

I always love reading your post Brainless, and I think you have hit right on the money. 

Most people do go for cheaper things, but are they really getting a cheaper deal out of these mongrels and desinger dogs?  I know people who are paying a lot of money for dogs that are not Registered, and it seems as though they are the problem. 

People are soon going to realize that these crosses, are going to cost them a lot more money.  The temperments arent for sure, not saying you wont get a wonderful temperment cross, but its harder when you dont know what breeds are going to show up in these crosses, and how the crosses breeds work together in one body - if that makes sense.

Then the vet bills, and such. 

I personally want an idea of what I am going to get.  I know that my breed is a toy breed, and that food expenses, etc are generally less for my breed.  If you get a cross, you dont know if it is going to be the size of a spaniel, or the size of a shephard, or bigger. 

Also, a lot of dogs are bought on impulse.  When you go to a shelter, you buy the same day.  You take the dog the same day.  With no real thought or research, into how this is going to affect you. 

Also, with the vet situation, it is harder and harder not to find pet vets, then breeder vets.  I have to travel quite a ways to get sugeries done on my dogs, just because there isnt one more local that could do it.  (I know, in the UK cropping and docking isnt done, but here it is).  More vets are siding with the UK, and not performing these procedures.  It soon will be to the point all dogs will be shown natural (which I am ok with).  Most vets are out to take your money.  They look and say, well, I know you just wanted this test done, but if you get the package of bloodwork for x amount more, then we will have a bigger blood profile.  Or something like that.

Anyways, I kinda went off topic, but thats my opinion.  Just tried to comment on issues brought up within the whole discussion. 

The biggest problem good breeders have is that the reputation of the pedigree dog is constantly undermined but bad breeding. 

Sadly the bad breeding is in the majority the attitude of the public and Vets is anti breeder, but they still want their pedigree pup, so many don't see that there is good breeding, they think all breeders are the same and that is why there is such an emphasis in many advice books about new pups to get a pup by 8 weeks of age. 

With a good breeder the age a pup is homed shouldn't matter as the pup will be getting optimum socialisation from someone far more knowledgeable than the new owner may be. 

I have read in many such books that getting a pup run on by a breeder is likely to net a badly socialised pup, which is patently not true if the breeder is worthy of the title.

As to the deliberate crosses, as these poor breeders are unlikely to have good or health tested pedigree specimens maybe in the first generation the cross pups will be healthier in some respects than the parents.  the rest is economics.  A puppy farmer with half a dozen or more breeds need keep just one randy poodle male to mate to all the bitches as opposed to a stud of each breed.

The first thing I did when I got my pup was the very next day he had a visit to my local vets.
He had a check over and I was then told I had a lovely dog.
Out of interest is this the correct thing to do?
And if so how many follow this?
Can a pup at say 8 weeks show signs of poor breeding?

I did notice he checked eyes, ears, mouth and did some inspection around his hips.

I hear far too many people saying that cross-bred pups or mongrels are far healthier, as they don't have all the health problems of pedigree dogs. My rather annoying step mother-in law is one of them. :rolleyes: They clearly haven't thought it through, as they soon shut up when it is explained to them that cros breeda are at potential risk of all the health problems of whatever breeds they are made up of, so potentially far more problems. Also, as parents are unlikely to have been health tested, those problems are far more likely.

I think the reason people pay over-the odds for 'designer' breeds is as simple and disgusting as fashion. sadly, the same reason peopel pay hundreds of pounds for designer jeans or trainers, when you can get teh same thing, of equal, if not better quality for far less in supermarkets or high street stores.

i kinda agree on the price thing, i'd love to get a good quality dog to start showing but simply cannot afford the one time massive outlay so that means i'm restricted to rescue because i'm not stupid enough to get one off of these people. when my parents bred they sold the pups for a price that covered the stud fee, vet bills (fairly extensive, kiz did not have a good pregnancy/delivery so she won't be bred again), feeding and what not. you should pay out because a good pup is a ton of work but it shouldn't only be available to the well off

save up? If you work out the maths, even at £800, for a great dog (no idea what breed you are after, but my breed thats around top whack and is i think a little excessive...), if you factor in even just 10 years lifespan, thats £80 a year.

That isnt expensive! I bet theres loads of things you pay £80 a year for and more.

Interesting question though.... which breeders here would consider lowering the price for a pup if a great home came along, but the initial financial outlay would be extremely difficult for them? Or consider taking payment in installments (so breaking it up over two or three pay days)...

(obviously i dont mean to the people who phone and say 'ere ow much cos ive only got £1.50 and these magic beans'!!!).

I would say that anyone (I did it) can save up the price of a puppy from the time they first plan to get one to the time they source a breeder go on their waiting list and wait for pups to be born and reared.

When I bought my first dog I paid about 75%/80% of my Monthly Salary for it, and I sent £50 at a time until I had paid for the pup by the time I was ready to move to this house and the pup was ready.

My daughter at 20 earns about £850 a month so puppy price for my breed £550 - £600 is no more than what I had to pay from my £400 a month salary back in 1988 when I bought a BSD pup for £300.

Most people will apply pay a similar price for a computer and the bits to go with, a new LCD TV etc.

Since many people are buying two pups together, I fail to see how they wouldn't be able to afford one good pedigree dog   Like Brainless I started saving up for my first pedigree when I started finding out about them.  When I paid for her I had to ask how much to put on a cheque, I knew the rough price of the breed, but we hadn't discussed it (long story) :D :D

Personally I think it's a lot to do with ignorance about the differences between a thrown-together pedigree dog and a really well bred one and not wanting to pay the full price for a well bred dog, you only have to look at how popular cheap 'copies' of expensive gear and perfume and buying from ebay have become to see that  :(   and many people don't want to wait for anything, least of all a cute fluffy pup :(

Even if a person wants a properly bred pup it can be difficult to sort the good breeders from the rest :(   Unfortunately good breeders aren't the ones advertising every week in the yellow papers.  And from what I've been told, puppy farmers and 'professional breeders' (a new name for the same thing :rolleyes: ) give a very convincing spiel, including why you don't need to show or have papers

I fully agree, unless you actually cannot afford a dog full stop you can afford a well bred pup - its the waiting that makes the difference.

People seem to want a dog RIGHT NOW, and cannot wait. I waited SIX YEARS for my pup!

If you take the time to find the right breeder breeding the right pup, all that time, stash away the cost of feeding/insuring that puppy monthly, so for my breed thats £60 a month ish.. then when the time comes you will have sufficient for the puppy.

I am notoriously awful with money so the looooooooovely (waves at her) breeder of my puppy took two cheques and I spread the cost over two months, but i had saved up the money for all the other stuff, ie vaccs, insurance, bedding, puppy food, puppy bowls etc..

I think far far more than any cost, its the effort and time involved.

I went to visit Keldas breeder what, three, four times... shes a good 160 mile round trip from me, that was over a period of a year or so, plus many many phone calls and emails.
Personally, i loved that part - i got the opportunity to be as certain as anyone can that the breed was right for me, meeting adults of the breed, youngsters of the breed, talking about the breed loads and loads. (And got tea and sammiches too :D).

Then afterwards I have the peace of mind that a mere email or phone call away is someone who understands what is going on with this puppy, and is interested, and will offer help and back up as much as I need.

That to me means the effort, the wait and the price are more than worth it - not only a pedigree pup, but a thoughtfully bred, impeccably raised, mentally and physically healthy pup whose breeder cares as much about her future as I do myself.

There is a lot of ignorance as to what the difference between a well bred dog and a poorly bred one is... and thats what stops people paying for the well bred ones, can more be done to advertise the benefits of the well bred dog?

There is a view on 'a. n. other forum' that there are barely ANY good breeders, but i find that unlikely in the extreme - i thnk part of the problem is that VERY good breeders rarely need to advertise, adn so to a certain extent, those outside of that breed or breed group are unaware of them, and ESPECIALLY those outside of pedigree dogs, ie the anti-breeder rescue and the 'dont mind just want a dog' groups.....

theemx i do agree that i could save up to get a pedigree, in fact its a possibility for us, however in order to bring a dog into our household at the perfect time (for the dog!, i.e. one of us will be there all the time for the first wee while) i would need the money for summer- and yet i do spend more than £80 a year on stuff, eg. university books, they cost a fortune, graduation fees, travel money for interviews for pg degrees, printing costs (add up astonishingly). i'm doing my honors so masses of overtime is not an option. my point was that people who are uneducated about dogs/breeding etc don't see why people are charging so much more for something they think they can get in the paper for £100. it is expensive but its worth it. i also believe that if you paid so much for an animal there is less chance of you choosing to dump it on a center

Sadly, people buy things that are cheap as they are penny pinchers. Why buy a quality brand TV when you could, for the same price, buy multiple & a DVD player etc. at no extra cost?

People sometimes are too uneducated to see the bigger picture. Many people get dog without a thought for vet care & if it did pop up, excuses would be made. It's the way some people are, sadly!

I noticed in one of the papers in my area that a breeder was selling a litter of "designer puppies"

This is the ad : A unique opportunity to own a Beastie ! (bedlington cross westie). Price on application.

Also another ad in same paper from same person : Bedlington Terrier puppies, from Top Breeder !!!!

Makes you think Eh!!!!

oh I just saw an add that listed 4 different breeds (two crosses, and then another two implied pure breds) under the heading Christmas puppy sale!

Oh my, makes me mad, but I have a post on that in the Idle Chat section, so cant comment to much on it.

What i dont understand is,  and this is about people wanting KC registered dogs cheap, why the kennel club doent insist that the parents (dog and bitch!)have the relevant health tests before the litter can be registered ..hence making  it more difficult for backyard breeders  to pass badly bred dogs onto unsuspecting pet owners.

because the kennel club would loose a lot of money and the backyard breeders would flock as a lot of them already do to the pseudo registries with appealing names when in fact they are simply exploiting dogs and the public.

If the figures are similar to the USA where only 12% of pedigree pups are bred from health tested parents by showing or working breeders then the loss of revenue would be huge, say half of all pedigree pups are KC reg now they would loose about 3/4 of their registration income.

It can be argued that then the KC would not have the money to do many of the good things they do with their money including giving grants to contribute to DNA research etc.

Obviously then this is a much more complicated issue and quite worrying it just seems that the KC is condoning the breeding of substandard dogs and the backyard breeders are in effect funding them.

i dont think it would make it difficult for back yard breeders because theres nothing that says that if you have registered dogs you have to register puppies.

makes me laugh when they say 'buy from reputable breeder' then say no KG reg. ridiculous!

I've had a response from Which, and I'm reproducing it here :-

>Thank you for writing in to Which? with your kind email about responsible breeders.

>it is a very important issue and one that I do not think we have covered before, we have run articles about pets and how best to care for them (our latest article being about pet insurance) but I do not think we have covered it from this angle before.

>I shall certainly pass this information on to our Research teams and should they choose to investigate this matter further then you may see an article on this issue in 2008.

>Thank you for your suggestion.   

>Kind Regards,

>Michael Graham
>Which?<

Hey!!! That's really great news. Thankyou for raising this point with 'Which'

Well never did hear from the lady so I bet that pup is now in their home, only hope they eventually bring it to training classes, as I did give her friend details.