Well in europe Dobes and Danes etc were traditionally cropped and docked, but most countries are now banning these practises. 

For anyone showing it can be a minefield.  some allow cropped and docked dogs to be shown, but ban the practise in their own country.  Some do not allow any dog to be shown with these things done whatever their age or country of origin, some allow them to be shown if over a certain age.

I would the think the UK has the strongest ban on cropping as it has lasted over 100 years.

There of course is no room for tradition regarding these issues now in the UK as the choice has been taken away by law.  so the question is academic.

Well in europe Dobes and Danes etc were traditionally cropped and docked, but most countries are now banning these practises.
yes if countries where the tradition was established and therefore matters the most are banning the practice then there is no real traditional justificatn to continue the practice overseas really unless all sorts of horrible accidents are happening to the tails and ears of dogs as a consequence.  It's interesting the ear cropping has been banned for so long over here.  Wow 100 years! No wonder they look so horrible when I see them cropped.After 100 years it would become an alien concept ( ...not that I am that old ).



Funny we were out the other weekend and a family was following usand the kids were saing stuff like woof woof lovely doggies and their parents were saying yes what beautiful doggies aren't they pretty. And then the kids started saying the dogie has no tail and the parents were saying oh but of course the doggies do have tails you ust can't see them  and they really couldn't tell there was no tail and in the end the kids saig okay the doggies have tails but very very tiny tails! lol.  cute kids.

Can an owner be prosecuted for buying a docked breed? Just say,a breeder ilegally docked their whole litter and sold them as pets,are the new owners held responsible,especially if they dont hand over the breeders details?

Looking at the regulations it would appear that they could as they are supposed to have written exemption.

HI,

I don't know anything about showing docked breeds since I have never owned one but have a question.

A guy at the training classes I attend has a boxer puppy and when I was speaking to him I asked what the situation would be regarding showing the pup since it appeared that his tail was docked. He showed me the end of the pup's tail and there is no scar. the owner says the pups is a bobtail Apparently, a lady in England breeds them like this and all in the litter, except one, were this way. He says that since the pup isn't docked he can be shown. The pup must be about 4 months old.

I hope I have posted this in the correct place!

Really interested in what those of you in the know make of this.

Thanks

When pups are docked by the banding method they would have no scar either.

there is no way his pup would be a bobtail unless it had Steynmere Bobtail boxer blood in the pedigree.

DR Bruce Cattanagh introduced the Bob Tail gene into the Boxer by using A bob tailed Corgi.  After four generations of backcrossing and getting typical boxers the kennel club allowed them into the breeds gene pool.  So for any pup to be legitimately bobtailed it would have to have Steynmeres up close in the pedigree.

I wouldn't expect there to be many.

Here is the Steynmere website: http://www.steynmere.com/

Here is a bitch from that breeding in Australia http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=10011 though if the DOB is correct and she is only 2 1/2 years old then I am disgusted that she has had two litters already, as she is barely old enough by most peoples standards to have had one.

Just had a look at the tail clauses for Boxers, Pembroke Corgi's and Swedish Vallhunds, only the Last mentions natural bobtails, which could cause problems for owners and breeders of the former two breeds who may produce bob tails?

This is one this I was wondering about.....for the dogs who sometimes produce natural bobtails. Do they have to be documented by a vet at birth? What keeps unsavoury breeders from suddenly producing near full litters of "bobtails"? 
How can you prove a pup is docked or natural ....since the breeder and family are the only ones who are present at birth?

Cheers

This is why I was dubious about the short tailed pup mentioned a few posts above at a training class.  With one bob parent you still woudln't get more than around half bobs.

I'll ask the vet this afternoon if there's time, but I'd imagine the most logical thing would be for the vet to confirm that the pups were naturally bobtailed at the routine post-whelping check. Any wound to the end of the tail would be clearly apparent.

Many breeders, myself included prefer not to have a post whelping check if all appears well.  The stress and risk of infection is not worthwhile unless there is a problem.

Surely no breeder could not be forced to do this?

I get the vet to come to the house, so there's minimal risk of infection. Breeders at least would have the choice of verification of a bobtail this way, rather than take a chance. There's no compulsion - the assessment of the risk is up to them.

Confirmation can be given by a vet either in a post whelping check or at 8 weeks if you take your pups to the vets prior to them leaving for their new homes for  a health check.

I've had 2 adult natural stumps certified so far - at a cost of £15 each just to write a letter confirming the status (this was done as an addition when they were hip scored as the only way to certify an adult natural stump is via x-ray)

I know of one breeder who unfortunately lost two puppies to what her vet has advised her was "veterinary infection" following a vet visit to the house to certify a litter with stumps in them at 3 days old.

K

And of course at 8 weeks the Vet could not tell the difference between docked and stumppies.  At least your breed standard gives  the breeder some protection in acknowledging natural stump tails are a possibility. 

This doesn't exist for the Pembroke's, or the Boxers.  there may be other breeds that I and other people are unaware produce natural bobs.  I believe that this trait was once in OES, and certainly in Australian shepherds.

I wouldn't think so but i've been informed they can!!

I THOUGHT IT WAS ILEGAL TO HAVE ANY DOGS TAIL DOCKED NOW?

There are exemptions for those who have workign gundogs aedn terriers.

HI,

The man with the pup showed me the end of the tail and it had a wobbly bit as if the last section was loose or broken. 

Another lady, at different classes tonight, told me that sometimes Australian Shepherds are natural bobtails too?!

Does this mean that it is very difficult to tell a natural bob tail from one that has been docked?

Sorry, please excuse my ignorance on this matter.

When you say wobbly bit was it like jelly?  If it was then I would say yes it's a natural bobtail.  There are quite a few breeds that have natural bobtails mine included.  My friend who had a litter a few months ago had her vet sign a letter stating which ones were born naturally.  I will hopefully (fingers crossed for a sucessful mating) be doing the same with my Lana's pups in January!

Was it like a pad of fat over the end of the tail.  That probably would be a genuine natural Bob, though it really would be impossible to tell for sure if a pup was docked or born without.

Hi,

I think it was as you described. Like an extra litle bit on its own that could be moved up and down.

Any chance the owner would bring you in the pedigree to look at?  if it has Steynmere in the pedigree then it may be genuine.

I will ask him nicely when I next see him. There is no class on Monday as is Guy Fawkes so it will be the week after.