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Up Topic Dog Boards / Visitors Questions / advise please on ethics
- By Guest [gb] Date 09.12.05 18:51 GMT
My so called friend has allowed her labrador bitch to mate with it's father. Is there anything I can do surely this cannot be allowed. Wont these pups end up deformed, maybe I am being stupid but there must be rules. can I report her to anyone I am so upset.
- By Lokis mum [gb] Date 09.12.05 18:59 GMT
No, the puppies will not be deformed, but they might not be as healthy as they ought to be, but there is "wrong" in this mating.   Neither is it necessarily right - a bit too close for most people, I would think.   There isn't anyone to report her to - but unless both parents have been hip/elbow scored, and eye tested, I would not advise buying the resulting puppies.   Although the "good" points can be brought out by a line breeding, so too can the "bad" points, and unless your friend is a real expert with her lines etc, I would doubt that this has been thought out particularly.
- By perrodeagua [gb] Date 09.12.05 20:20 GMT
If she's a member of a breed club then you can report her but that's the only people that you can report it to.  If she isn't a member then nothing can be done.
- By Isabel Date 09.12.05 21:06 GMT
No point reporting it if the breed club doesn't forbid it and neither of those I am a member of do.  Do any?
- By chels5 [gb] Date 11.12.05 10:53 GMT
i was gutted when a friend of mine did this with their dobe, they had 10 pups 6  survived others died after fitting and some just faded, i no longer talk about breeding with them as i dont agree with it, one of the pups later died at 6 months, the one they kept themselves has had problem after problem, the breeder they bought their bitch from ( who has died since herself) recommended it as she had the dad! :-(
- By tohme Date 11.12.05 12:41 GMT
There have been some extremely successful dogs that have been bred from a father/daughter mating, however generally speaking these are done by extremely knowledgeable breeders who have extensive knowledge of the lines.
- By Lokis mum [gb] Date 11.12.05 12:45 GMT
That was a point I was trying to make, in a very muddled way!!  Don't think that this mating sounds as if if was though!
- By Anwen [gb] Date 11.12.05 12:54 GMT
I produced the best bitch I've ever bred from just such a mating. She lived a long & healthy life & in turn produced a Champion daughter herself. The important thing is, I knew her pedigree inside out & the worse thing I got, which I was prepared for, was one puppy in a non-standard colour. The sire certainly wasn't used for convenience as he lived 200 miles away. So it's not always gloom and doom but it can be a recipe for disaster if done without in-depth knowledge.
- By Joshanna2 [gb] Date 11.12.05 12:59 GMT
I dont mean to cause offence to anyone - but i find this awful.
It is illegal (at least i think/hope it is as i know bro/sis is) to do this is human terms so why do it with dogs?
- By Lokis mum [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:02 GMT
Marriage/sexual relations between near relatives IS illegal - incest etc etc.

I think you are confusing morality with legality :(
- By Joshanna2 [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:04 GMT
No im not, what i meant was it is illegal to do it with human, i know its not the same with dogs - but its the same sort of priniciple
It makes me sad thinking about it - i wouldnt want to "mate" with my dad (shudder at the thought)so why make a dog do it?
- By tohme Date 11.12.05 13:06 GMT
Dogs do not have the same outlook on life as humans do, neither do a lot of animals and as a matter of interest "incest" goes on all the time in the natural world in loads of species; do not "cut and paste" your distaste onto animals, they are amoral........
- By Brainless [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:10 GMT
Actually they are animals and given the opportunity are very happy to do it with whichever relative is handy :D
- By Brainless [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:08 GMT
It is unaceptable in human bings primarily on moral grounds nothing to do withnhealth and genetics.  In fact there are sadly quite a number of children born as a result of incest that are perfectly healthy.  The problem is that such close blood ties are as likely to reproduce any problem areas of heaLTH OR TEMPERAMENT AS THEY ARE TO REPRODUCE THE GOOD.

In livestock breeding this can work OK as the ones exhibiting the bad traits would be culled (killed and eaten) and te ones with the best traits of hardiness and producing desired characteristics would be bred  from.

I beleive that the Park Cattle are very inbred, but there must ahve been very good selection at the start and the population is healthy.  The same w9il happen with Island populations of animals, or any small population, thugns are fine if the bad traits dodn't get a chance to reproduce 9anthing preventing the animal survivign to breeding age) but can be disatrous ifmthe ill efects happen later or are progressive/cumulative.
- By Blue Date 11.12.05 18:56 GMT

>It is unaceptable in human bings primarily on moral grounds nothing to do withnhealth and genetics. <

Hey Brainless I did a bit of reading on this a while ago and it is indeed a law because of health reasons and also moral.   

There is a proposal just now to ban relationships between 2nd generations relatives in groups that still practise it in the UK   cousins etc being put forward to Parliment after a recent study showing Pakistanis are greatly more likely to have a genetic problems that those who do not practice these traditions.
- By Blue Date 11.12.05 18:57 GMT

Her is a snippet of it.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 11.12.05 19:08 GMT
That is exactly what we have been saying you cannot breed close relatives WITHOUT taking into account family health history, incest/close breeding doesn't create health problems it ensures that traits in common are more likely to appear in the offspring good or bad.

So if the kissing cousins come from hardy stock with no history of family health problems then the children will be healthy, but if there are problems in the family history (and many are likely to be recesive) then they are more likely to manifest in the offspring than if they were bred to unrelated people/animals.

With any close breeding selection is essential.  In humans it is rarely practiced on health grounds.  You only need to look at the problems with Haemophilia in the European Royal families.

If one were to say that any person with a hereditary health defect was not allowed to have children the human rights people would be up in arms, but that is what responsible breeders of animals endeavour to do.
- By Blue Date 11.12.05 19:11 GMT
Totally agree with you Brainless :-) I find it incredible it has been allowed to continue for so long in the UK.
- By Anwen [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:11 GMT
That's a big question Radleydog, but first of all, dogs & humans are not the same. (in case you didn't know that :D ) In dogs, you are looking at it from purely a health point of view, there's no morals or legality involved. Those of us who have done it from a knowledgeable viewpoint have done it because we believe it improves our breed, fixes good points and eliminates less desirable ones. Everyone thinks of the negative points whic can result but very few think of the positive point. You only get out of a mating what is already there, whether it's exceptionally good temperament, really sound conformation or an hereditary disease. If you really know the dogs involved, it can actually be far less risky than using a completely unrelated dog whose background is little known.
- By Joshanna2 [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:14 GMT
i did say i did not mean to cause offence to anyone...
i am not a breeder so do not know the ins and outs, it was just my personal opinion
- By Anwen [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:17 GMT
You haven't caused offence - just gave us an opportunity to put our points of view. :D
- By Joshanna2 [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:18 GMT
thats good then, at least i see it from both sides :-)
- By Brainless [gb] Date 11.12.05 13:27 GMT
Most people would n9t choose to breed that closely as it can be a teo edged sword,a dn it also limits what you can breed to in the next gneration.  Most bredrs seeking to fix or amintain a type choose to mate dogs that are related distantly and exhibit the desired traits, because they are slightly or more related the chances of getting the desrireed traits is higher than if theynwere totally unrelated.

To be honest no member of a breed or in people a race is unrelated, though the relationship may be very distant.  Two chinese people will be more related than a chines person is to an African, which is why the children of the first will strongly resemble their race.

The same may have once been true within populations within a race or country, and say people in the North looking more like each other than people of another region.

the same would aply to breeds of dog and to strains or disticnt types within a breed.
- By roz [gb] Date 11.12.05 19:05 GMT
As much as anything, the "rules" on human breeding were laid down in the Bible. A book which seems only too regularly to be treated as gospel! And I always assumed that the taboo on incest was more to do with the need to bring new land and property into families rather than it being all about muddying the gene pool.
- By Lois_vp [gb] Date 15.12.05 13:19 GMT
As much as anything, the "rules" on human breeding were laid down in the Bible. A book which seems only too regularly to be treated as gospel!

Erm, just to point out Roz, that the Bible is intended to be the 'gospel' (good news) :)
- By CherylS Date 11.12.05 19:15 GMT
Village near us, half of them seem related.  One family has daughter who has children who are also cousins :rolleyes:  Interestingly they all have speech and dyslexic difficulties and here lies the nub.  Humans don't select partners by genetic information, which is just as well because we would be practising eugenics. On the other hand we would also be selecting the fittest and no need for laws that protect us from inbreeding dodgy genes causing a greater liklihood of passing on genetic diseases. 

Radleydog, you have been properly socialised into society's norms and values that dictates against close family members producing children.  These are human morals though and don't apply to animals. I can understand why you think it is wrong but really it isn't, unless the breeder is just inbreeding for the sake of producing puppies without any health checks of lines.
- By denese [gb] Date 15.12.05 12:18 GMT
Inbreeding is not illegal, in the wild all animals mate the female in season,
being sister, mother, grandmother ect; from 6months up. Dogs are
animals. An experienced breeder doing this can breed a champion dog.
If they are K.C. and are with in there ethics, not a problem.
In human terms many cultures also marry there cusins, uncles ect;
It just needs experienced people doing this.

- By Lyssa [gb] Date 12.12.05 19:05 GMT
Although the mating is not illegal in any way, it is too close for myself and many others and certainly there is no need for it, as we have hundereds of good lab stud dogs to choose from, so it looks as though it has been done out of convienience.  Dogs will happily mate with any other dog put infront of them, brother, sister, mum, dad, they don't care either way, so the same moral issues and disgust are not at stake as with humans.  The pups will not be a health risk unless one or both the parents have health problems in their lines, if they come from healthy stock with good hips, eyes, etc the puppies even though closely related will not be effected.

I can see that you do not approve of this mating as do myself and others, even though it is perfectly legal, but if this lady is a friend, why on earth do you not just tell her you are dissappointed in the breeding instead of asking the site if you can report her to anyone, I would not count you to be a friend of mine at all!!!
Up Topic Dog Boards / Visitors Questions / advise please on ethics

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