Champdogs Information Exchange
08.12.05 10:23 GMT
Hi ...after much research I recently purchased a pedigree puppy from a licensed breeder. I went to see the puppy a few days prior to bringing her home and everything seemed fine but since I brought her home last Sunday she has loose and watery stools and is passing blood quite often. I took her to the vet who gave me some kaolin paste but 2 days later she is still the same. I rang the breeder a few days after bringing her home to voice my concern but she told me to mix some rice with her food which I did to no avail. My question is ...what rights have I got? Can I take her back to the breeder (I dont really want this as she is a sweetie but I paid for a healthy pup) and ask for a refund? I'm not sure of my consumer rights in a situation like this and any advice would be gratefully excepted. Thanks in advance.
08.12.05 10:34 GMT
I think you would need to register
to have this gone into properly as your post raises several questions.
It is not abnormal at all for a puppy to have an upset tummy in the first day or two in its new home. Just the change of water can do it let alone the excitement, new things in the garden and home to chew with bacteria its little body has never met before. So that in itself does not seem reason enough to return a puppy as "unhealthy".
Missing a feed or two out entirely then feeding plain rice with white fish is a good way to get them back on track but if you have missed that opportunity and the upset has gone on a bit, especially to the point of the bowels becoming so excoriated as to pass blood then you do need to get this puppy checked by a vet.
Not sure what you mean by a registered breeder. If you mean the litter was registered with the Kennel Club then that is a good sign. If the breeder is registered with their local council as a dog breeder this can mean they are either good or bad as it is just an indication that they breed a certain number of litters a year and is no indication of quality. Were the parents subjected to the all the health tests recommended by the breed club and did you see the results in certificate form. This sort of thing is far more relevent as to whether you have purchased a healthy pup rather than a day or two of upset tummy.
08.12.05 10:46 GMT
Hi..sorry just registered. I meant licensed breeder the puppy is KC registered too. As for viewing the parents health check certificate I wasn't shown this and to tell the truth I forgot to ask. The pup has been with me for 5 days now and I would have thought that her tummy would have settled down by now. Just getting a little concerned now as she is passing blood quite often. I took her to the vet on Tuesday and he said to come back in a few days if it doesn't clear up and they would keep her in for monitoring. Thanks.
08.12.05 10:54 GMT
I would certainly take her back to the vet. You should ask the vets opinion whether this appears to be the normal upset that puppies can experience in a new environment or whether he is unhappy with her condition generally. Did the breeder give you a record of her worming regime to date and have you adhered to her feeding schedule without change, other than the rice.
As Isabel says, a licenced breeder is simply one who produces more than 5 litters a year - it generally applies to commercial kennels, and is no guarantee of quality. Are you feeding exactly what the puppy was being fed before you bought her? The breeder will have given you a diet sheet (this is a KC requirement) so make sure you stick to that to the letter. If she's no better today I'd take her back tot eh vet for tests - you may have a valid complaint under Trading Standards.
I had trouble with my puppies loose poos which had blood in them and mucus. Through the process of illimination I found out I was over feeding her. Its worth a try to just cut right back on what you give her. I halfed my puppies portions for 1 day and the next day she had perfectly normal poos. I have since given a little bit more each day to see what she can tollerate.
Edited to say my vet gave me antibiotics and probiotic tablets but none helped as it wasnt an infection or lack of bacteria, simply just me being OVER kind to my pup.
I don;t know where you stand in regards to the breeder, but my breeder told me to take my pup to the vets within 24 hours of brining her home for a complete vet check, and to let her know. Luckily my pup was fine, but a caring breeder will want to ensure the health of their pups, and they will want to know if there are any problems. I would take a stool sample to the vets and ask for it to be tested, as you may get a much better idea of what is causing the runs - whether it is dietry, or caused by a virus or bacteria. Also, don't mix rice in with the food. I went ot he vet with my pup recently, who had a swollen abdomen, the runs, and was off her food comepletely, and the vet said some dogs are intolerant to rice, but she said if you do feed a chicken and rice meal for example, to help with poorly tums, to make sure there is more chicken to rice. If not, a lovely lady on here suggested to me to use chicken and mashed potatoes, but with no cream, butter etc (NO dairy at all). You can also get intolerance canned food by Royal Canin from a vets which I found helped my puppy no end. But definitely pursue health tests at the vets, as the longer this goes on the worse this pup will get.
Just to add, don't leave this pup with the runs for a few more days as the vet suggested - in humans it can be fatal and I don't see why this is any different for dogs - having the runs can cause the loss of vital fluids, salts and nutrients. Take the pup back to the vet and get a stool sample test done. Also, ask about rehydration mixes for the pups water. My vet said there is no reason why I couldn't use Dyoralite (not sure of the spelling there) which is a human rehydration powder you mix with water, on my pup who is five and a half months, but with yours being younger, ask about this. Also, the blood in the stools is very concerning. I have, like I said, no idea on your rights with the breeder, and I was lucky I am still in regular touch with my breeder who is an excellent lady and a credit, but the health of this pup is important and it is obviously suffering with this continued problem. Best wishes to you, and let us know what happens x
08.12.05 11:48 GMT
Hiya ..thanks for all the replies. The breeder never gave me a diet sheet just told me what she was feeding and gave me a few days supply of it(Beta pup). Never had a worming record either but she said she had wormed her on Sunday morning. Doesn't look like I've researched this at all. Anyhow taking her back to the vets this afternoon so will let you know the outcome.
I think the earlier poster is right - cut back to feeding only the basics, and then reintroduce other foods and check for a reaction - you may have a pup who has some dietry intolerances. Also, I think it is a shame your breeder didn't fill you in more about diet - I go a whole sheet on information on diet and feeding, as well as a massive bag of feed. I have, since coming on this site, realised how lucky I was with my breeder. Just give this little guy a lot of attention and care and I am sure it will all be fine.
What breed is she? It may be that Beta isn't really suitable and a pup at a young age usually has a few different meals during the day.
08.12.05 12:08 GMT
Fingers crossed that all goes well with your pup.
Incidentally, do you know what the pup was wormed with? Only worming can make them off colour but I wouldn't have expected it to cause this degree illness. I'm also surprised you didn't get a full record of all wormings too only I use the same vet as my breeder and one of the first things he asked when Nips went to be vaccinated was "Can you let me have me the worming details that XXXXX gave you?"
08.12.05 12:14 GMT
It is actually part of the Kennel Club code of ethics, which breeders registering their puppies are obliged to abide by, to supply a diet sheet or it was last time I bred and of course she should have given you a written record of when and with what the puppy was wormed. I would be inclined to point this out to the breeder for future reference :). I would not be in too much of a rush to go down the route of looking for intolerances and chopsing and changing diets as this in itself can lead to problems so it seems far too early to embark on that helter skelter myself. See if your vet can settle this upset first and go on from there as the vast majority of dogs do not have any intolerances.
08.12.05 18:20 GMT
The vet doesn't seem too concerned and told me to continue using the kaolin paste until the course is finished. He also said to keep her on a rice mix for a few days. The good news is she has just 'been' so to speak and it was formed and no sign of blood so I feel a little easier. So I'm going to stop panicking and give it a few days. Thanks again for all your responses.
08.12.05 18:51 GMT
I'm pleased :) I hope she now gives you are lot more ups than downs although puppies always have one or two up their sleeves :)
08.12.05 20:41 GMT
Sorry Spanishwaterdog ...she's a 10 week old Cavalier KC Spaniel and she really is a sweetie and has already become best of friends with our cat.
10.12.05 11:45 GMT
Didn't want to highjack Gwens thread so dug this one out again. Has your puppie's improvement not continued then? What is the vet saying now, does he think the puppy was in poor condition in the first instance? Have you contacted the KC to let them know the breeder did not give you diet information? Sorry lots of questions.
10.12.05 12:09 GMT
The vet has said that if theres no improvement after the weekend she has to come in for tests. She did seem to pick up on Thursday and losing less blood and I thought she was on the mend..but last night and this morning she has just been passing very watery stools again but with no trace of any blood. She sleeps alot of the time but she does play in between and doesnt seem to be in pain or discomfort. I wouldn't part with her now but I'm just annoyed at the breeders response or rather the lack of it. In the beginning I did put it down to the 'settling in' period but I think we're way past that now. I havn't been in touch with the KC yet.
10.12.05 16:51 GMT
Hi again Tilly, just found this thread after replying to you on another. Glad the vet is not too concerned, but would suggest you make sure you keep her fluid levels up, and add either diaoralyte (plain not flavoured) or glucose to her water. I woudl also withold her last meal tonight, and for her first meal in the morning give just plain mashed potatoe. This advice was given to me as a remedy by a Dutch locum vet years ago, and has worked on numerous cases over the years. Just plain potate, no butter, salt etc added. Cavaliers can be very prone to colitis and other tummy upsets. Make sure you are not giving anything likely to cause a problem, such as milk. If things look good after this breakfast, I would move onto just plain chicken (no skin) for the next meals, and give the potato again on monday morning, followed by chicken for next feeds. IF things look fixed then gradually return to regular diet. I have never fed Beta, and would always recomend a premium complete, such as Eukanuba or royal Canin, I don't think introducing one of these after you are sure the tummy is fixed should be a problem, as she will have been off the original diet for so long.
Regarding the course of action with the breeder, I would suggest a polite letter advising them how poorly the pup has been, and enclosing copies of the Vets bills, and ask for reimbursement. I would keep this first letter very polite, but don't forget to mention that sellingn dogs is subject to the sale of goods act, in which goods must be fit for purpose.
10.12.05 12:07 GMT
Just picked up on this from your comment in Gwen's post! Glad to hear she's a bit better now - any pics? I'm a keen Cavalier fanatic! :-)
10.12.05 12:13 GMT
Hiya Lucy ..yep I have a few pics ..do you want me to email them?? Just looked at your web site ..it's great and your cavs are just gorgeous :)
Hi. I have a new CKCS pup, well he's 14 weeks old now. At 12 weeks he had a nasty tummy upset - diarreah with mucus and blood. We were given pro biotics and he was put on a chicken and rice diet but didn't improve, then after 4 days I was given Hills perscription I/D dry food by the vet (it has electrolytes added and is very easy to digest) and he was better literally overnight. He's fine now and I'm just in the process of gradually weaning him over to JWB turkey and rice from the I/D......so far, so good! If things don't improve maybe mention the perscription food to you vet?? Also, as Leannek mentioned, overfeeding seems to be the main culprit, I think thats what started Harvey off but you live and learn!!
Hope pup's better soon.
11.12.05 12:06 GMT
Hi Tilly, I always love pics of Cavaliers, yes please email me some!
Hayley, I mostly blame the dog food manufacturers for the problem of overfeeding - I think it's disgusting that they recommend so much more food than is actually correct to food. Take my boy, he's always had far less than the recommended amount, sometimes only just over half as much, and it's not like he's going on long gruelling hikes every day, I often wish I had time to give him longer walks than he actually gets!
12.12.05 11:34 GMT
Thanks for all the advice much appreciated ... going to have a chat to the vet later this week when she has her second jabs about the prescriptive diet. At the moment she starts off with well formed and then gradually gets looser as the day wears on so not sure why this should be. In herself though she is full of fun and quite energetic in between sleep times so there doesn't seem to be much wrong which is good news I think.:)
Where abouts did you get her?
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