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- By Guest [gb] Date 06.12.05 19:17 GMT
hi i have just bought a irish blue puppy nine weeks old' i bought it in an advert in my local paper. as a pedgree i got all the papers with it. but when i got home i noticed that there was no dog number for the male missing. i have been trying to get in touch with the people by phone but no answer. the pedgree forms is on a sherleys pedgree form and all seems ok but for the males pedgree number. can you help on what to do. i got this for my grandson
                                                  thank you robert. my email is
- By nursey Date 06.12.05 19:29 GMT
Hmmh, it's difficult to know where to start.

First of all, the Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier is not in itself a KC recognised breed. However KC registered dogs can sometimes be referred to as Irish Staffs because they are generally taller and more refined in appearance than KC breed standard would dictate.

Puppies can only be registered with the Kennel Club, if BOTH of their parents are registered. Were these pups advertised as KC registered? and did you get a KC registration certificate among your 'papers'. I wouldn't mind betting that you have been 'had'. There is a well worn saying in dogs and that is Caveat Emptor, meaning, let the buyer beware. If you are unable to contact the breeder it might be a case of what's done is done.

If the pups were advertised as KC reg and you have the original advert, then you might be able to get Trading Standards involved.

Dawn R.
- By Anwen [gb] Date 06.12.05 19:40 GMT
Sorry, I agree with Nursey. Every dog has a pedigree, it's just that with most non-registered dogs, nobody bothers to write it down. If your dog was KC Reg & you had the registration, the Sire's registration number would be on the Registration certificate.
- By craigieboi [gb] Date 13.12.05 17:11 GMT
hi rob,

i just read your post today, but from what i have read there are a few things that should help you. mainly that if your irish staff truely is a blue she will (sorry she/he) be a solid with slight white around the socks and bib areas usually and will likely have a pedigree history similar to mine with names such as kk blue or kk stasia or bart blue steel china blue your dog should have some of them in it u see irish blues are very 'inbred' which if you look at some of the kennels now they are introducing new bloodlines into them as it is the same dogs breeding over and over again another is price...... expect to pay around 650 upwards if you got one for 350 or 400 it wont be true ( or has very bad lines in it) can i ask who sold you the pup? and where they are as i may know them hope this helped you something........ at the end of the day tho rob unless you got ablue to breed n sell n breed n sell etc then if you are happy with the price you paid and the puppy you got you wernt ripped off as a puppys only worth wot ur prepared to pay ps any chance of some pics?

ps irish staffs are usually registered with either the I.K.C. heres the link
or the S.I.B.T.C. tel 01515126494 OR finally the I.S. & A.B.C. tel 07961-545653 / 01512010867
- By bulldog bash Date 15.12.05 21:39 GMT
why should someone wanting to buy an unregistered stafford from dubious lines and with no real paperwork expect to pay £650 upwards? :eek: Ive seen this type of dog go for £300 so why should someone pay an extra £300+ for a peice of paper which isnt always worth the paper its written on?
- By bulldog bash Date 15.12.05 21:42 GMT
Sorry I dont know how to do quotes but this bit of craigiboys post rang a bell  
a blue to breed n sell n breed n sell
Thats seems to be the main reason a lot of people are breeding these dogs, to make money and sell them just because of their colour, seems a bit crazy to charge double the price of a well bred, well reared and health tested KC staffie pup, I bet these irish blue dogs dont have any health tests done! :confused:
- By craigieboi [gb] Date 15.12.05 23:19 GMT
hi bulldog, irish blues ( if you obtain it thru the correct channels and do your homework on it) are more expensive but there are a lot of 'cowboy' breeders out there i no as i found a few when looking for my blue ones saying stuff like they had kk stasia or kk blue or jocko etc etc in their blood................ however they had no papers to support this!!!:confused: and were selling for about 200 less than i paid for mine but for that extra 200 i got her history,( and i no its true as spoke to a few on the lines and checked the lines out), saw her mum and dad met the owners etc etcand they were all health checked-L2 HGA and HC/PHPV this is why you pay the extra as its a 'badly' kept secret that some 'breeders' use the I.S.B.T. as an excuse for passing pits and without that heritage line you cant say if u get a pit or not.

anyways bully (lol chattin so long now i kinda no u:cool:) yup FAR too many breeders view theyre dogs... not just blue irish staffs as a kinda cashline machine n it oughtta b stopped breeding should be coz u tryn 2 perfect the breed not make a few pounds n if u doin it right u probly WONT make a few pounds lol

with respect

- By bulldog bash Date 16.12.05 12:30 GMT
so are your dogs "irish blue" staffs then or are they KC registered staffords? Because if they are KC registered I cant see how they can be "irish blues" as well. If the parents are health tested for L2/HC etc then they must be KC registered so please can you explain for me cos Im a bit confused here :confused:
- By craigieboi [gb] Date 17.12.05 20:47 GMT
ur rite bulldog......... i just assumed mine had that test also as they were all health checked but on further enq i found out they wernt........ mine are ikc registered tho not kc dunno y only kc can b tested tho?....... u any ideas on this 1?
- By lel [gb] Date 18.12.05 01:50 GMT
For Kc dogs there is a known parentage and therefore pure blood which will allow a valid result
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 31.12.05 18:10 GMT
good and bad in all breeds, blue and blue bull terrier and council esate bull terrier, i have seen good blues and not so good blues, i have a 3 month old blue and white pied bitch my mate bred them and im not just saying it because i have one but she is class one good looking girl she was the little one of the litter but she is good looking and her markings are grand, now if your into bull terriers i dont think there is a fixed price, my one was 750 pound and i got her of my mate for 350pound and the blues were 900 pound, what i am saying you only get what you pay for in life, if its a good dog you have to pay for it if you take your rolls royce to have a sevice thay dont charge you for a service on a ford, to become a good breeder takes time and hard work and to sell a good pup with after care service the pup is worth his weight in gold sam london
- By ShaynLola Date 31.12.05 18:19 GMT

>my one was 750 pound and i got her of my mate for 350pound and the blues were 900 pound, what i am saying you only get what you pay for in life, if its a good dog you have to pay for it

Puppy farmers/ BYBs usually charge as much (or more) for a pup as a reputable, responsible breeder does therefore you do not always 'get what you pay for' in life. If only it were so simple....

Oh and BTW, reputable breeders will charge the same for all their pups, regardless of colour. Anyone who charges more for a particular colour because it is supposedly 'rare' is cashing in, nothing else,  as all pups in a litter cost exactly the same to rear ;)
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 31.12.05 18:37 GMT
weather its blue and white blue brown or black and white if you see a good dog and i mean good dog you telling me you wont give top doller for it, i do no what your saying i see people with ther dogs and i would not give 100 pound for but what you say is true farming people hear or see a blue and say i want one thay dont know about the breed and thay think its a blue ive seen blues that look like jack russ not knocking the jack but you know what i mean but what i do mean i dont mind if i had to pay the 750 for mine sam london
- By ShaynLola Date 31.12.05 18:58 GMT
Yes I can see what you mean :)
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 31.12.05 19:25 GMT
have you a staff  well heard the irish are in your home town but i never saw one in dublin or rosscommon or wexford
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 31.12.05 20:11 GMT
most of them dont  need to be tested because you are only geting the real breed back its when thay crossed it again to get the show staff that all the probs started happ,the irish tall staff is getting moor common and we will see more of them,ive had 5 k.c. staffs in the family if you like bull terriers you like all bullys i cant say i would never buy a show staff as im going to call them but i have moved over to the irish breed but lets get one thing right the dog did not ask to be put here so if it is small big english irish  we love you all sam london
- By nursey Date 31.12.05 20:18 GMT
Sorry Sam, I don't understand what you are talking about, can you clarify please.

Dawn R.
- By Lokis mum [gb] Date 31.12.05 21:14 GMT
Wheres Moor Common?:confused:
- By perrodeagua [gb] Date 01.01.06 13:30 GMT
There are Blue Irish SBT's advertised in my well known local paper this weekend too and they say that they are KC registered and I think that they were charging around £500 for them?
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 01.01.06 18:21 GMT
its a little place by arsenal
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 01.01.06 14:05 GMT
ok make it easy we had the same prob with bull dog, litlle wide dogs some are litlle but so wide there legs find it hard to cope with body weight, big heads small skulls brain tumars, i have seen moor and moor long leged staffs around over the last few years, you do get k.c,staffs with long legs tall, but most of them are i.k.c  how did thay get the breed staffordshire bull terrier what did thay look like then when thay first found the breed,what were they used for was it a show or working dog why do we have testing on dogs  did they test in the 5os sam london
- By nursey Date 01.01.06 14:54 GMT
Sam, your style of writing is extremely difficult to understand. Are you offering some kind of opinion on the various types of Staffordshire Bull Terrier?
Or are you asking how they evolved. Some parts of your posts appear to indicate that health testing breeding stock is unneccessary, unless I have misunderstood again.

If that is what you are saying, then I do not agree with you. There are many hereditary diseases in almost all breeds, and many methods of testing to minimise the risk of these diseases being passed on by the parents to the puppies. I think it's of paramount importance to do everything possible to try to ensure that puppies are as healthy as possible. Guess work is just not good enough. The pups deserve better and so do the puppy buyers.

You also said, (I think), that crossing a Stafford with somthing else to create an Irish Stafford was only returning to the original type and so must be somehow purifying the breed again. That is in my opinion simply not true.

Dawn R.
- By bek [gb] Date 01.01.06 15:44 GMT
can i just ask what is ikc reg
- By Lea Date 01.01.06 15:47 GMT
Irish Kennel club registered????
Lea :)
- By bek [gb] Date 01.01.06 16:09 GMT
thankyou have oftern seen it but never new what it ment.why cant they be reg with the kc
- By Goldmali Date 01.01.06 16:19 GMT
Bit curious here. I've just been to the Irish KC's webiste, and there is no such thing as an IRISH Staffordshire Bullterrier listed. Am I to take it that there in fact IS no such breed in Ireland either, and that it is just the same Staffy as here but that they for whatever reason tend to look different in Ireland (or from certain breeders do) and so people refer to them as Irish Staffies when they are IKC reg'd? Seems to me to be the case. Both the IKC affiliated breed clubs known as "Irish SBT" something use the word "irish" to refer to the fact that the CLUB is located in Ireland, it has nothing to do with the dog's breed.........

Edited to say: same thing as the Irish Golden Retreiver Club does not mean the club is for some breed known as the Irish Golden Retriever. :)
- By archer [gb] Date 01.01.06 16:43 GMT Edited 01.01.06 16:46 GMT
Think IKC can also stand for 'intercontinental kennel club'....a registry owned and run by a Mr Ed Reid .It registers 'working type' bull breed .
- By Goldmali Date 01.01.06 16:49 GMT
Ah. He of the PitBulls.
- By archer [gb] Date 01.01.06 16:53 GMT
Yep!!! :mad:...wouldn't touch that registry with a 10 ft barge pole! I attended a local companion show with my Archer who as many of you know was a huge staff and very fit/well muscled.I was approached by a gent who had stood watching Archer for a long while and was asked if I would be interested in registering him with this registry and attending some of their 'performance' all it takes is to look the part!:rolleyes:
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 01.01.06 18:13 GMT
Dawn sorry about my writeing and spelling just a few things to ask you then, 1) what did the first staff look like and how did thay get this breed, what did thay cross.
2)was it a show dog or a working dog
3)did thay do testing in 1950
4)do you breed uk k.c. staffs
5)how long have you been a breeder to staffs for
6)i think testing is very good  like you state if there a chance you are breeding poor pups
7) do you think interbreeding caused a lot of problems in this breed
8) do you like any other bully breed the english bull terrier the bulldogs the u.s.a staff the irish staff
thank you so much for your time i can tell you know a lot about the staffordshire bull terrier please can you anser the few things i asked it whould be a big help once again thank you, sam london
- By archer [gb] Date 01.01.06 18:36 GMT
3)did thay do testing in but then we had neither the knowledge nor the technology back then did we.Things move on and those of us who chose to ignore progress are just burying our heads in the sand.

6)i think testing is very good  like you state if there a chance you are breeding poor pups...without testing there is ALWAYS a chance you are breeding poor pups!...thats the point of testing:rolleyes:

- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 01.01.06 21:14 GMT
arch in london today the staff is a very pop dog do you think it was in 1950,also the pulling carts with bags of sand you know the shows im talking about do you think the dogs enjoy this type of thing, i have dogs for pets my english bull terrier is nine and he has never had i fight in his life my pupy is like my kids tuck them in at night,i think the irish  bull terrier is a very lovely dog and deep down if you see a good one even you would say the same,i deeply understand your love of your breed, and i do think a lot of you do know what your talking about; but i do no a good dog when i see one and ive seen some very good irish bulls and in london thay are geting very pop,my english bull sire was a champ k.c crossguns of bullyview my pup staff sire is steves brave blue of sparysburys  and dam magical mystique the bit of paper i have for her is worth about say 10 mins work, in my english not worth two bob both parents have reg numbers and both parents are very big and good looking dogs i bought this pup because i know she is a lovely bitch and she is going to make a lovely pet and i love this breed, i never bought this pup thinking im going to buy a staff that im going to take to crufts, like i whould not go out to buy a jag and come home with a ford. are you a breeder to arch. sam london
- By Brainless [gb] Date 01.01.06 22:03 GMT
Depends on what you think is a good looking dog.  Plenty of attractive mongrels too :D

If you are judging whether they are  agood example of a staffordshire bull Terrier then you need to know and understand the breed standard,  and responsible breeders would wish to compare the traits of their dogs against the competition (very easy to be blind to the faults of ones own dogs) so an impartial assessment by other breed experts puts things in perspective,a dn helps a breeder keep on track :D

I have personally no time for anyone who casually breeds any breed, but especialy one with such big rescue problems, as for unregistered litters :mad:  This article should explain the differences between decent breeders, and the rest
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 01.01.06 18:42 GMT
7) Interbreeding invariably causes problems, certainly in the short-term, because the outcross brings in a whole new selection of variables, throwing 'breed type' straight out of the window.
- By nursey Date 01.01.06 20:48 GMT
Sam, my answers to your questions.
1.Sorry I have no idea.
2.Don't know, does it matter?
3.Probably not in the way we do now, see Archer's reply.
4. No.
5. As I said above.
6. Again,as Archer says, It's highly likely you would be breeding poor pups if you avoided health screening tests for the parents.
7. See Jeangenie's reply.
8.No, Bull breeds are not my thing. I'm into glamourous coated breeds. Good breeding practise is the same whatever breed inspires you.

What I know about the Staffordshire Bull Terrier has been learned from this and other forums, I read everything,and take it all in.

Dawn R.
- By Val [gb] Date 01.01.06 20:57 GMT
This is an interesting Staffy site!
- By gwenstaff [gb] Date 01.01.06 21:13 GMT
I would just like to add anybody who is thinking of buying a staffordshire bull terrier should check that all health tests have been done. If not people should be asking why not. L2 is now quite widely known about and breeders should be testing all their breeding stock for this. And HC they now have a blood test out to see if your dog is a carrier.
If anyone would like to know anymore info on these please feel free to email me at
- By ridgielover Date 01.01.06 21:16 GMT
Just wondering what L2 is?  I assume HC is hereditary cataracts?
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 01.01.06 21:26 GMT
dawn have you ever heard of the midwife who tells you how to bring up your baby, and she has not got kids herself it happens all the time and no mater how many alevels she has or how many notes she writes in her nice handwriting she ant got a clue, do you ever rember the midwife comeing around sam
- By nursey Date 01.01.06 21:35 GMT
:rolleyes: Can you smell a billy goat gruff?

Dawn R.
- By lel [gb] Date 01.01.06 21:50 GMT
Only purebreds can be health tested for an accurate result
and if you dont test youre an idiot (and a selfish one at that at the expense of the dog- whatever breed)
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 01.01.06 22:06 GMT
well must say i have found out a lot from this forum, dawn i know you mean well and you advice is sound even that its second hand like you just told me,well you have passed it on to me and i do thank you mean it, but can you or any of the forum show me a photo of the first staff  or staffs i wish you all a happy new year and keep up the good forum sam london
- By Brainless [gb] Date 01.01.06 22:13 GMT
If you join the breed club/s (contacts at teh bottom of the breed standard page I posted for you) then you will no doublt be able to purchase back issues of the breed periodicals,a dn often ones from many decades ago can be purchased.  Often there will be historical articles in more recent Journals/Yearboks.

A good book on the breed (as opposed to a Pet owners manual) will ahve photos of the earliest dogs,a dn history/myth on the beginnings of the breed.
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 01.01.06 22:27 GMT
thanks 1935 the rat catcher thats the photo i mean thanks for that info i will look it up
- By lel [gb] Date 01.01.06 23:04 GMT
try looking at a pic of Jim the Dandy
he was the dog that the standard was set on
- By gwenstaff [gb] Date 01.01.06 23:35 GMT
Totally agree with you there Lel. Only idiots would ignore health testing.

And as i said if you email me i can give you all the info you need on Hc And L2
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 02.01.06 13:28 GMT
bloody hell they cross a bulldog and a old english terrier of the sevententh century,it gave him the strength and gameness of the bulldog with the speed of the terrier.the performance of the cross was tested in the pit. before prior to the formation of the breed club in 1935, the staffordshire bull terrier was commonly known as the bull and terrier or the pit dog,today the staffordshire bull terrier has taken on a different breed type(bloddy hell is this true) so before 1935 the staff was a bull and a terrier or a pit dog , god i wonder if it was tall or small, if you compare that standard with todays standard,and thencompare the majority of todays show specimens with either standard,you can see that a contradietion of type exists, arch what does this mean
- By Brainless [gb] Date 02.01.06 13:38 GMT
If it has a dot after it it probably si an abreviation for archaic (old/historical).
- By archer [gb] Date 02.01.06 14:18 GMT
arch what does this mean

What does what mean? you mean what is a contradiction of types?
- By sam hadfield [gb] Date 02.01.06 14:42 GMT
yes arch whats a contradiction type cheers mate
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