Champdogs Information Exchange
22.10.05 09:24 GMT
If a breeder told you that every pup in a particular litter was good enough to show, would you walk away? I am looking for a pup to potentially show, though they will obviously be a much loved pet first and foremost. I was under the assumption that only very few in a litter are good enough to be shown.
Yes, I would be very doubtful that such a stunning litter existed, certainly in breeds where markings are important.
I don't think any litter will be full of Champions but looking at 6-8 week old puppies if they have no obvious construction faults or mismarks then they could all have the potential, possibly some more than others. I have a bitch from such a litter all of her litter mates have qualified for Crufts in a numerically strong breed,weather they fulfill there earlier promise we will have to wait and see but I'm sure we'll have fun along the way.
22.10.05 11:44 GMT
You could try asking the breeder to point out the faults in each one - if theres only 1 or none in each, I would doubt that she really knows.
I have had litters where none were much to shout about (I now realise) and others where the pups have been very even. If you have a really good litter then half may show promise and maybe half of those realise it.
I have yet to see how they turn out, but my latest litter of 7 had to my mind 3 pups with definate potential (would have been happy to keep any of these), and another 3 that were as good as the first two or three that I started out showing who were always placed respectably and won a few classes at Championship shows, two getting their stud book numbers and one a RCC.
Fortunately the two bitches most difficult to split and one other are all going to be shown in different countries so won't be competing against each other.
I just feel that the parents had a particulrly good nick, having complimenting qualities, and both are very sound and have been good enough to gain their titles. I was also pleased with their first litter, all 4 would not have been disgraced in the showring, and the two shown have won A CC and RCCs.
i have just bought a pup from a breeder i admire and was told the litter was very even well i trust her 100% she is a lovely person and her dogs are stunning and i hope we will in time become friends as in my opinion when you find a breeder that has the dogs you like you should stick with them,well if you like them whats the point in looking around im not planning on looking around so if she said the pups were all show quality i would take her word thats just my opinion anyway
22.10.05 11:53 GMT
I would guess that the breeder had been expceptionally lucky indeed, or did not have enough knowledge to assess the litter (or was pulling a con!) You will have to find out what they consider to be the faults and virtues of each pup, and also find out how good and succesful the parents where - more likely to get this degree of potential from parents of exceptionally high calibre, with years of winners/superb dogs behind them in the pedigree. You need to find out lots more before you can make a decision.
Coming back to this does the breeder you are talking to have a good reputation? Have they exhibited succesfully themselves and are there other people interested in the litter with the view to showing one of the pups? This will all give you more idea weather the breeder can spot the potential in a litter and how much experience they have or weather they are deluding themselves or trying to mislead you. Do you know anyone else in the breed who could advise you?
Personally,i don't believe that any pup in a litter can show,show potenial that early in it's life.
There are so many things that can go wrong and i also believe that no decent breeder will sell any pup by saying it has show potenial.
most breeders will want a good home as a pet first and foremost,if then it makes it in the showring thats a bonus.
We were told by a well known breeder that a litter of 3 days showed great show potenial,this person should have known better.
I would make enquires with the breed club and see if the breeder has a good reputation for breeding good stock,that has had the relevent tests etc for that breed.
I would say the opposite ;) Most puppies(from decent parentage where thought has gone into the litter) have potential at 7/8 weeks but its just that some never reach the expected potential and others may exceed it, unless they have a glaringly obvious fault that is apparent from early on.
It has been known for some experienced breeders to pick their potential stars while they are still wet :D
22.10.05 20:38 GMT
Hi Sally35, if we never saw show potential in young pups we would never be able to decide which pups to keep/run on! It is by no means an exact science, and we can more easily say which pups will absolutely not have show potential at 8 - 10 weeks, however, some pups have enormous promise at that age. Then there are the very basic reasons why they will never make the grade - mismarks, poor coat quality, bad mouths (if a mouth is off at 10 weeks it is unnlikely to become correct after change of teeth in my breed). When we are selling a pup to someone who is looking for a potential show dog, we have to evaluate the litter very carefully, the buyers know it is only an opinion, not a guarantee. For experienced exhibitors we can discuss our reasoning on thinking "this" is the pup for them, with novices/first show dog owners we expect them to rely on our expertise in picking the pup whcih we feel will be for them. It would be both unethical and unkind not to sort out our litters into some form of best to worst from the buyers point of view. It seems that in some other breeds evenness in litters is more the norm, but not in Yankees. In 15 years of breeding I can only think of 2 litters which we felt impelled to initially classify the whole litters as having show potential (and they did not all remain at that level of estimation!) These were litters from 2 of the top producing bitches ever in the breed, (mother and daughter) mated to world class stud dogs from the USA. These 2 litters have produced several champions (on several continents) including 2 Top Gundogs and a current Top Dog all Breeds. This is why on another thread I was advising someone who was unhappy with the performance of a young dog in the breed that as he was apparently 4th pick from a litter, perhaps he had not achieved the quality they hoped for because as 4th in line he was unlikely to be a great one ;)
22.10.05 22:04 GMT
Buyers of show-potential pups also need to be aware that the development of the pup can be affected by exercise and feeding etc. A good dog can be spoiled by incorrect exercise/poor feeding and a fairly good dog's chances can be improved by correct exercise and good feeding, nothing is written in stone at such an early age ;)
Personally I would never attempt to 'guarantee' show potential, all that can be certain at a young age is that the pups have no obvious faults ;) An experienced breeder often knows how a pup from their litter is 'likely' to develop tho :)
A breeder can't guarantee show quality, only show potential.
Do not believe anything someone says too you, a breeder as Brainless has said cannot guarantee show quality any responsible breeder would not say that, litters should be even but all are not of show quality for a breeder to say that it shows their lack of experience in my opinion run a mile and get someone you can trust you wont go far wrong then. Good luck
Warm regards Susan
Yep a breeder can only say a pup has show potential, and the more experienced they are the more likely their opinion will turn out to be right. Even then the od Ugly duckling turns out to be a swan and many a really promising pup fals to fulfill early promise. Usualy they will certainly be show qualit6y, but not top flight, but sadly occasionally some fault of development that cannot be assessed at a young age will manifest. For example the bite goes wrong, pup grows to big or doesn't grow on enough etc.
Also occasionaly you do get a super litter where even the less outstanding pups are better than many being shown. There have been litters where two or more littermates become Champions, and conversely many litters have nothing outstanding at all.
I have had bot5h types of litters, where was really spoilt for choice, and others where there just wasn't anything really good of the sex required. the most frustrating situations as a breeder is to ahve a lovely litter and none of the potential owners is interested in showing, and then the less good litter and you have several people wanting to have a go at showing. Often the latter do modestly well, but you always think why couldn't they have come along when I had those lovely pups.
I had this with my Champion bitches Mums last litter. Two of the owners wanted to show, one just a bit and one definately. As it turned out the maybes showed once and she was really nice, but they decided it was too expensive and too much travelling. The other had one of her parents die and decided it was wrong time for a new hobby!
11.12.05 12:04 GMT
My friend's got a litter of 4 where 3 have currently quite good show potential, but as others have said, it's a question of how they mature. :-)
11.12.05 13:18 GMT
Although it HAS happened that a particular litter have nearly ALL gone on to be made up, it is extremely rare (of course one has to consider the number of puppies IN the litter). If you had a litter of 3/4 it is more likely that this may be so than in a litter of say 12.................
12.12.05 21:41 GMT
You cn have litters where they are all good, in my breed - where we only get small litters - I know of 1 litter where all 4 became Champions - so it could be true in this case. Does this breeder have a track record of breeding dogs that win and selling pups that win for their new owners? If a breeder has never bred a really good one yet why would they suddenly produce a litter of stars. But if that breeder regularly produces winner- well get one.
No puppy can be sold with show guarantees, but pups can show potential at 6/8/10/12 weeks. How it goes on is as much in the rearing as anything else. Of course not all people are good at picking the right puppy to keep, the last dog I bought the breeder and I both felt he was the best male in the litter, someone else looking for a show pup completely dismissed him and went for another - I am pleased to say I was right and my lad became a champion pretty quickly.
In the Guests post, the breeder told them that all the puppies were good enough to show. What that means can mean different things in different breeds. In a ticket breed that will mean that the breeder would indeed be very lucky to have such good quality.In a Rare Breed perhaps it could be that all the pups looked good enough, at that time, to show. I dont think the breeder has said all the pups would be champions.
In my breed, a Rare Breed with low entries at shows, if a pup had the correct coat and was a good example of the breed with no major faults, they would be able to be shown.
I think it all depends on what breed the guest is talking about and what level the guest would want to achive when showing.
Also as you have basically said what does someone mean by show potential.
Of the five I have owned and shown only the youngest two have won CC's so to some people the others wouldn't be show quality if their criteria is capable of winning CC's.
One of these three has a RCC and was always well placed in her classes, and with limited showing would need one more win in Limit to be Open class only. She has had a lot more seconds than firsts.
Her mother managed always to place in her classes of at the time up to 13 in the class in Post Graduate, but really she was not as good as her own mother who rarely won a class, but placed at Champ shows and won her Stud Book number. Her litter brother was a Champion.
To be honest at where I am now I would consider my first two typical exhibits with no serious faults, learner dogs, respectable enough to show at Championship shows, but not if your wanting to win much.
The three youngest (the one with the RCC and the CC winners) I consider to be Competitive show dogs.
All five have won Best Of Breed at Open shows, and the one I consider least show worthy (though she has some qualities better than her Dam) won second in the Group at an Open show.
My first ever show dog of another breed was probably on a par quality wise with my oldest two Elkhounds usually placing in first 3 and rarel6 getting slugn out if there were more exhibits than cards. She like they was a nice typical bitch, but a bit long caste in breeds that are required to be square.
15.12.05 22:02 GMT
Very true - when I looked for my first two dogs I wanted dogs that wouldn't be too embarrassing at an open show. I got my lovely but coatless Yankee who has never beaten anything, and my CC winning Cavalier!! I suppose it evened out! :-D Now my new puppy, although her head isn't brilliant, is good enough to be placed at open shows, which is all you can really hope for when buying a puppy - most people aren't going to sell the really good ones unless they do have a litter of future champions! :-)
They will if they can't keep many dogs,a dn hope to get their best into homes that may show to give them scope to utilise the bloodline down the road, or if it is the sex they aren't keeping.
I own a Champion (which I initially sold at 7 weeks knowing she was the best, but wanting to wait until bitches second litter to give a bigger age gap between the girls), she came back at 8 1/2 months, and I kept her, her daughter is a dual CC winner.
Have also sold a champion male, and one on two CC's and a RCC winner that I hope may do better.
For a breeder like myself that cannot campaign and show as often as some it gives me more pleasure for others to do well with dogs I have bred than doing it myself. I don't drive so getting to shows can be difficutl and I am reliant on lifts.
Another way to look at it is it is my Kennel name being shown, and it isn't costing me in entry fees.
18.12.05 12:29 GMT
Good point! :-D I know I get enormous pleasure from winding my friend up about selling me her best dog! :-D
Yes I would walk away. I would ask first of all if the breeder showed and what sucess they had in the ring. I would then go to some dog shows and see which dogs are winning, and talk to breeders about the breed. Also find which type you like the best as all dogs can vary slightly. Go on one of the experienced show breeders waiting lists for a puppy.
I often see adverts stating pups for sale, for show, work. If you speak to the breeder they say they are all show quality. But when you ask if they show, they say, no. But they often say "but in the pedigree their are tons of SH.CH.", this means nothing. It does not mean at all that all puppies in the litter will there fore be show dogs.
Even after all that, no breeder can one hundred percent say the puppy will be a show dog. You can see potentiol but by 6 months they can go over, not be quite what was expected. For this reason alone even the most reputable show breeders will run puppies on for 6 to 12 months, and if they do find they are not what they want, then they find a nice pet home for their puppies.
Many breeders though cannot, or choose not to run pups on unless they are staying for good, so that decision at 8 weeks is a crucial one as that is your show dog for at leas tthe next 3 years, until yu breed something better for yourself or someone else.
This is a problem for many people who are limited to the number of dogs they can keep,in order to further their breeding program, they need other people to own and show their dogs.
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