Champdogs Information Exchange
08.03.02 21:46 GMT
How do you persuade a maiden dog to mate a maiden bitch? We have tried neutral ground, his home ground, the front room, the garden,
He seems interested but wont mount her, she is flicking her tail and seems ready to mate, she is standing for him, but he wont perform!
Does anyone have any suggestions?
08.03.02 22:13 GMT
i had the same problem with 2 staffords last year in the end the bitch got on top of him to show him what to do but he still wouldnt do it in the end we gave up this year we tryed again and he just did it maybe the dogs just not ready yet
09.03.02 00:00 GMT
personally i would just accept that this dog/bitch combination not "meant to be," & maybe find a more experienced stud dog fot the bitch next time.....two maidens not usually a good idea.
09.03.02 15:35 GMT
Hi, bad luck!! typical isn't it, if you didn't want them to mate it would be a different story!! Is there a really long established experiencd breeder, who has "started off" their own young dogs before, living anywhere nearby who could come and handle the dog? If you dont know them you could maybe explain your problem and offer to pay a them a fee for handling him? ISome "pet" dogs can be reluctant to mate with their owner present, though he may perform if you are holding the bitch. Best of luck. The very first time I had a bitch mated - a working ESS- the chosen stud - a maiden FTW, would not perform until his owner went to answer the phone, after 1 and 1/2 hours of trying. As soon as his owner left the room, he mated her straight away and tied for half an hour!! We had 8 lovely babies.
09.03.02 15:42 GMT
Hi Westie Lover, All the experienced breeders around here are at crufts! Trust the bitch to pick this weekend to be ready! We have tried twice now and he still isnt interested enough to mount her. He is chasing her around the garden and they are nuzzling each other, he just wont mount her. The minute we hold her he backs off, and when I left them alone with the bitch owner my dog cried and just wanted to come to me. Only thing we didnt try was leaving them totally alone in the garden... but I am unsure about this incase something goes wrong!
He lives with 2 bitches and we wondered if this was the problem... he sees the girls as his pack and does not want to mate an 'outsider'... so to speak!
09.03.02 17:02 GMT
Weims - it could be that he is cleverer than you think and that the bitch is not yet ready, maybe tomorrow or the day after. Or he could just be a bit naive :D.
Has he "practised" on anything before now - I'm thinking legs cuddly toys, my lad "loves" our coffee table, it's just the right height - yuck. He had no problems on his maiden mate.
Pam n the boys
09.03.02 20:00 GMT
Have to say I tried everything to try and keep my two innocent JRT's apart...they just were'nt having it,within seconds of seeing each other they were in a tie unfortunately as she is to young (another thread) and is due to have her pups in a week.
Always the way...if i'd wanted them to they probably would'nt of done it!
Must just add that I can't wait for them to arrive now...just worried how she will cope.
Good luck with yours,i'm sure they will work it out soon!
09.03.02 21:12 GMT
He has had a 'practice' on a bitch I own, but fortunately she did not become pregnant. So he knows what its all about. He lives with bitches who come into season every 6 months, and he behaves himself most of the time, although he wants to mate them I obviously stop him, I remove him from the room and cage him at night. He copes very well considering. It has been suggested to me that the bitch wasnt ready and he knows that. Maybe well have one last try on Monday. tomorrow is a no go cos we are at crufts. On Monday she will be on day 15.... I know bitches are all different, but mine are ready to mate on day 9 - 12.... maybe shes a late comer!
my stud dog lives with two bitch,he trys it on them when they are out of season,but he gets told off by the bitch,he knows when a bitch is readly.he was very good on his first stud work,i do think it was living with bitches that helps,possible the bitch is late or has finshed,he should know what to do if he lives with bitches.
09.03.02 22:15 GMT
Hi Lynn, I'm probably telling me granny how to knit, but have you tried leaving them alone? I have an old boy who is an incorrigible romantic. He insists on flirting with the ladies for ages, and if they growl he retreats for a while and then starts all over again. But even after he has 'wined and dined' her, he just will not get on with the job if there are people watching, never mind 'helping'. Alll you can do is retreat and keep a discreet eye on what happens from a window. Fortunately he doesn't mind me (but not anyone else), once he has tied. Oddly his son was (we lost him recently :-() the original 'wham bam .. what you want me to say thank you ma'am? ... dog :-)
10.03.02 09:05 GMT
HI, only other thing I can suggest is to kennel them next to each other overnight, but where they is no way they could mate through a gate or get into each others pen and then introduce them each morning. Do you have another male that could romp about with her safely, so that she would smell of another male dog, or get a friend to rub a cloth over another dogs coat and wipe it round the nether potions of the bitch. A little imagined competition may spark him off!! I am a little worried about giving advice about mating dogs as I HATE handling stud dogs - which is why I dont keep one and travel the country so that other people can have the stress and worry of it!
24.03.02 20:12 GMT
Hiya, I know this is late but have only just read the message.
The dog and bitch you are trying to mate are they Weimaraner's?
25.03.02 19:06 GMT
Yes they are weimaraners :)
25.03.02 20:37 GMT
Did you get them to mate in the end?
How old was the dog?
26.03.02 11:17 GMT
Hiya, No we didnt and the dog and bitch were both 3 yrs old...... people have told me not to panic and to try again, but i am not sure.... I felt such a numpty as I expected that a dog and bitch would mate automatically... now I know better.... :D
26.03.02 19:29 GMT
I was quite amazed when you said your dog was three years
of age. Usually by this time they have got the hang of it.
Was this the first bitch you had introduced to him or not?
What I have observed over time is that it is the bitch
that excites the male, by play, you
know what I mean they dance around and this gets the male
going. Also the bitch will sometimes release her glands which
stink like rotten fish and this will drive the male wild.
Without the fore play they are very reluctant to mate a bitch,
Another thought was she was not ready on day 12.
I have one bitch only a youngster 14 months old and
would not dream of mating her until she was nearly three, but
she has just had her first season and was ready on day 8. By day
11 he was no longer interested and I could walk them together
again. I will have to remember this in the future.
Also I have another bitch that had a litter last year and I could
not understand why at day 12 and 14 my dog was not interested.
However at the end of day 16 he was, and mated her, he was
then mad for her for 4 days. So maybe your bitch was early or
late. If the bitch does not want it and the dog is mad for it,
then by turning the bitch beside him to mimic her playing with
him usually gets results. I wonder like you, if your dog will ever
want to mate a bitch. I would of said your bitch was not ready.
It can happen that the dog has no interest and will never have
interest. If you know of someone else prehaps a friend that has
a bitch in season, see if they can bring their bitch around when
they think she is ready, and keep him on the lead, obviously dont
let him mate her, but observe his response.
After all it might not be his fault, it might be the bitches season
and she did not release any eggs or the right smells.
He also might like a bitch that he does not live with as I know a cocker breeder that let her
stud dog go because he would not mate his bitches that he lived
with and she had to bring in another dog. He went away and sired
lots of lovely pups. It is going to be trial and error with him.
Another thing is some Weimaraner breeders have told me that a
dog is capable of mating a bitch when he cocks his leg around
10 months old. So they should be capable of it, not that they
should do it that young as they need the hips scored around
28.03.02 11:05 GMT
Hi, It wasnt one of my bitches that we were trying to mate him with. He lives with 2 bitches and would mate them if I let him. This was the first bitch that he had been introduced to that he didnt know. We let them 'play' together for best part of 3 hours, and by that time he just layed down and couldnt have cared less whether she was there or not. She seemed ready to mate as she was moving her tail and standing for him, but even she got fed up of waiting eventually. Everytime we thought he was going to mate her he looked at me and backed off. I tried going away but that just distressed him, I think i;ve spoiled him by shouting at him when my girls are in season to leave them alone. We will try again but I dont know if it will work or not.
I thought a dog was able to mate a bitch from around 6 months of age..... I have also been told that you shouldnt hip score until the dog or bitch is at least 18 months old and have stopped growing? Maybe someone who knows better will be able to put us straight on that point.
Thanks for you help
PS: You have weims yourself... do you show and if so do I know you? (sorry being nosey now!:))
28.03.02 13:02 GMT
Lynn unless you are really unlucky, I honestly think that you got the wrong date. My maiden dog was introduced to a maiden bitch on her supposed 'right date' and although he flirted with her .....he refused to mate her. In the end he mated her on her 21st day and she had 11 pup's :D
As for hips scores, I was told that dogs shouldn't be scored before they are 18 months of age. You also have to be careful when you score bitches, as to where in their cycle they are, because it can affect the score?
28.03.02 15:54 GMT
Oh Leigh I do hope you are right about my boy, cos hes lovely and I;d love to see what he produced. :) Still time will tell as they say..
I have made enquiries and am reliably informed that 18 months mimimum age for hip scoring preferably about 2 yrs old. I didnt know that about the bitches cycle though... you learn something new every day ! :)
Happy Easter to everybody !
28.03.02 19:18 GMT
No I do not know you. I have been showing just for one
year now, at open shows in East Anglia,Cambs,Essex.
I am now entered at champ shows this year. So prehaps
we will meet.
As for your point on hip score. I had my dog scored when
he was one years old. I now have two litter sisters to be
hip scored they are 14 months old. The vet has told me to
wait a bit longer this time. As the bones will get stronger.
I had a very similar experience with my stud dog.
When he first started being a stud dog we had
a lady come to us and her bitch was day 5 in her season as
she knew her mother was always day 5. He took no interest in
her and she came back the next day and stood again, moving her
tail. The lady was so mad with my dog that he would not mate her
she took her bitch to another dog on day 12 and 14 and it mated
the bitch. To give my dog some credit I am sure he would of mated
the bitch if she had come on day 12 as she was only then ready.
I really think the bitch that came to you was not really ready or had
gone over. The dogs are normally right on what day is right, and the
bitches will stand I have noticed as much as one week before the
You may find that, if the person lives not far from you, they would
come earlier in the season just to see, then later in the season.
As I said before my one bitch is not ready until day16. Also the two litter
sisters have just had their first season. The one was ready on day 6,
the other day 15 so they are all different. I expect the bitch could have a blood test. Also another thing we do now, is we ask for the bitches to be
smeared for any bacteria. Not everyone does this but I think it is worth it as
I have a friend with a stud dog and a bitch is going to be mated this week,
but the bitch has had a smear and it has bacteria. So they are giving the bitch anti-biotics to clear up the problem before its mated.
28.03.02 22:36 GMT
Hi Nutkin, on the hipscoring point, I have been told that a vet in the breed has said that if you hipscore before the dog is 18 months old the hips can be manipulated making a better hip score than they would have, plus at 12 months old a dog is still growing so an accurate score cant be achieved. I have been told by someone who has had the breed since they came into the country that they wouldnt take any notice of a dog hipscored before 18 months old as it was probably wrong! I have no experience in this field so I have to take what I have been told by a more knowledgeable person.
I know a few people from essex who show their dogs... maybe they know you?
Under the US scheme dogs can have a preliminary evalutaionat 12 months, but must be over 2 years for the final permanent evalutaion. I had heard that in fact the score can be worse while the dog is under two rather than better, and this would be borne out by a breeder friends experience. She had two,litter sisters scored one came out with a sore something like 3/4 and the other 4/22.
As she was worried by this she had her xrayed again, and the hips looked much better, and if they had been scored on those plates then the result would probably be sinilar to the sisters! She was advised that such a one sided score would not be indicative of genetics, as Hip Dysplasia isa essentially a bilateral condition and scores are usually similar on both sides if heredity is the major influence.
29.03.02 19:58 GMT
Prehaps I should wait a bit longer before I get the hip score done
then. As I said I have two 14 month old litter sisters.
I was wondering as someone told me that you should not let
dogs play too much chasing through fields as this will make
the hip score bad. These two girls have always played
played like deers standing on their back legs.
Will this affect the score??
Someone else told me they let their Weimaraner play a lot with
a different breed of dog and that is why their hip score was so
high. They said they were still going to breed the dog as it was
not the dogs fault. As you know we are not supposed to breed
with a dog if its score is over 13. I was wondering though Lynn,
do a lot of people breed with scores over this??
29.03.02 20:53 GMT
Hi Nutkin, I really dont know what scores people breed with. As far as I know very few people actually hip score in weims. In my lines it is not prevalant as I know the great grandmother grandmother and mother of my bitch who is now a grandmother herself and none of the dogs have any probs with their hips. I can also trace the sires and grandsires back and have been told that they havent had probs either? I know you shouldnt let dogs climb stairs or take them for long walks before they are 6-8 months old as it can damage their bone structure, but I let my dogs play together and always have. dont think that playing with another dog would affect the hip scores, afterall dogs are born with bad hips playing does cause bad hips! (If I am wrong maybe someone will put me right). If a dog is going to have bad hips they are born with them!
In my breed i have never heard of any hip problems other than some arthritis in old age, but all breeding stock is scored as there is no room for complacency. Of dogs scored we have had a range from 0 to 61 total score with most dogs scoring below 20, and a breed average changing in different years between 13 and 14!
A poor new owner was told by her vet that she would not be able to breed from her lovely bitch (who won her large Crufts class) as her score was 14 one point higher than the current breed average!
This is of course rubbish, as hips are only one factor as to whether she should be bred from, and her chosen Stud has a score of 10 (below the average). As dogs of scores of 20 are capable of a long working life (I think I read somewhere that that is the score that the Police and Army accept for their working dogs), so to all intents and purposes a functionally normal hip!
I think the breed distribution of scores should be taken into account, ie if most of the breed score below a certain level, then why use the breeds worst for breeding, unless of course there are other good reasons for including the animal in a breeding program, and the hips are still reasonable!
30.03.02 13:43 GMT
I was quite interested in your last comments that dogs can
be bred with over the score of 13. Mine are under 13 but it
has always been on my mind as I know of a lovely dog that
I wanted to use on one of my bitches, but his score is just under
20. I asked the vet and he said no way so I did not persue it.
I will have to look into this further. I take it your own Weimaraners
as well. This is a good way to chat to other Weimaraner owners:D
Also Lynn looked at your site, very nice. Lovely dogs.
The penny dropped when I say it as I am sure I contacted you by
e-mail the other week. I will e-mail you over my web site address
at some point when I have a bit more time. I am off to do some
gardening now. Such lovely weather, also the dogs are telling
me they should be outside in the sunshine.
Sorry nutkin, mine are grey but hairy Elkhounds! If you read any articles by Malcolm willis, a world respected geneticist and expert on HD, you will find that the aim is to breed from individuals under the breed average in order to improve the situation with regard to overall hip staus in the breed! His charts that show the spread of scores across the breed is more informative than the actual mean scores. He points out if the only good thing about a dog is good hips then it should not be used for breeding, on the other hand a slightly higher (but not health affecting or debilitating) score in an otherwise excellent specimin should not preclude it from being bred, especially if its relatives have generally excellent hips, or the sires are better and he throws good scores!
In his Hip overview on our breed in Dogs Today June last year he said that 40% of our breed scored 10 or less (only 5.35 less than 5) and 75% scored 15 or less, about 11% score above 20, and only 6% above 30! and that the overall picture of hips is tolerable.
I would imagine a similar report of Weimeraner score distribution is available enabling a breeder to make a n informed decision. Personally I would put my upper limit at 20 with a balnced score (both hips similar) but perhaps be a bit moreforgiving with a wildly lopsided score!
He points out that despite asertions by many vets the mode of inheritance of Hip Dysplasia is polygenic.
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