Champdogs Information Exchange
I have a friend who wants to breed her 2 1/2 year old cocker bitch.It is her first time and the stud dog is an experienced 4 year old.She has taken her on her 10th day and all she wanted to do was play.She stood for the dog but when he tried to mount her she just spun round.She has tried her again a day later and the same thing has happened.She's done an ovulation test and the timing is right,but the bitch just wont let the stud do the business.What do you advise she does.
14.11.02 08:38 GMT
That is why it is important that a least one of the handlers has experiance. Tell your friend to leave it this time and find an experianced stud next time. If they carry on the bitch, dog or one of the handlers will more than likley get hurt. If not more. And this dog is to old realy for a first mating. J:)
14.11.02 08:59 GMT
HI, usually if a bitch is properly ready she will stand happily to be mated, though some will always have a bit of a grumble even when they are ready. Perhaps it is still too early - I rarely get a mating on the 10th day and even 11 days is often too early. If you are keen to mate her you will have to hold her really still so that she cant spin round, often maiden bitches are skittish until the dog actually does mate. It can put the dog off if he thinks he may get hurt - and bitches will sometimes attempt to bite the dog. I would try again on the thirteenth day - stand or kneel in front of her holding her collar firmly on both sides of the neck under her ears. If she starts snapping/struggling wildly then stop but if she is just a bit grumbly and the dog is keen then its worth carrying on. Once the dog is actually mating you MUST keep her still, though the stud dog handler will often put a hand under her tummy to stop her sitting down you may have to do this. I also try to let them have a play first - to get to know each other a little but not all stud dog owners allow this. If you are (understandably) faint hearted about it then leave it til next time as Jackie suggests and find a really experienced dog and handler, who will tell you what to do and how to hold her, and take control of proceedings-they will know whether to stop or carry on trying. Mating dogs is not as easy as some people imagine!
14.11.02 09:07 GMT
Mating dogs is not as easy as some people imagine!
LOL. It always seems that the ones that we don't want breeding who seem to have the easiest time doing so :rolleyes: :P :D
Have just had a couple of bitches come to our dog complete with ovulation tests saying they were ready on the 10 - 11 day. One stood day 13, the other not until 15 and 17. Remains to be seen if they are in whelp, but when they stood, they stood really well, when they didn't, they were like the little girls with the curls in the middle of their forehead........
Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats
14.11.02 15:06 GMT
Hi, very new to this and cant get to the page I want which is specifically about flat coats. We have 4 year old male, would very much like to stud. In Essex area. His pedigree is Kenzed Cafe Royal. He came from Reading. Would appreciate hearing from anyone as FCR not too common in these parts...
Dillon, have e-mailed you about your post
Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats
29.05.03 11:25 GMT
i'm having trouble with my bitch and my friends dog. They seem to know what they are doing but he just can't get it in her. I have tried tio help but am unsure of what to do. please help
14.11.02 13:18 GMT
Hi jACKIE h
I just read your post and wondered about your comment this dog is too old for a first time mating ? Not being argumentitive just wondered about it, I know absolutely nothing about cockers :)
Just an enquiry really.. :)
I think Jackie H got mixed up with which partner was the maiden, thinking it was the Four year old male who was a maiden. I am sure she will agree that 2 1/2 is a perfectly suitable age for the bitch to be mated. :)
14.11.02 18:56 GMT
Your right Barbara, I would swear that it did not say that when I read it, else I would not have gone on about the need for a least one experianced person to be there. If the stud is experianced I am at a loss to know why it's owner did not instruct the owner of the bitch how to hold her, you would think they would have been conserned about their dog. Still I must make a point of reading a post twice in future. Ja:)kie
Easy enough to get post back to front when reading quickly, or maybe it got edited? after you posted your reply??
14.11.02 21:13 GMT
You are kind, most would call me senile. J:)
14.11.02 23:00 GMT
Hi Jackie H
:) :) senile ??? you are not on your own !!! :)
I was really confused.which is not unusual I have to say.
Gave me a laugh anyway thanks :)
The stud is an experienced one Jackie.
What was the result of the premate test. Did it say that the bitch was about to ovulate or had just ovulated. In a bitch the ova are released (ovulation) at an immature state, and it takes two more days for them to be mature enough to be fertilised, and they will remain viable for up to another two days.
Some bitches will only stand for a very short time.
I would advise them to take her again. Let the dogs play for a little while, and if hapopy in each others company perhaps putthe bitch on the lead, and stady her when the dog gets serious, If she is cocking her tail and seems willing! Also it is quite normal for a bitch to yelp and show discomfort after penetration, when the dogs penis becomes fully erect, and the bulbous glandis swells to facilitate the tie, so it is at this poitn the bitch should be prevented from wriggling, and reassured.
I do not of course advocate any forced mating, just keeping a giddy young miss willing still!
The stud dog ownere should be able to tell by the behaiour of his experienced male if the bitch is spot on as the dog will be much more keen and insistent if this is the case, and also should know how bitches behave when the time is right. So your friend should alow herself to be guided by the stud owners experience.
14.11.02 10:13 GMT
It is quite common for maiden Cocker bitches to do this even when they are ready (though 10 days does seems a little early, though not unheard of) If the stud dog is experienced then presumably the stud dog owner is also experienced? I would have expected the stud dog owner to show this bitch's owners how to hold her bitch still while the dog penetrates - most first time bitches relax once this is achieved & then the tie can proceed as normal. I never allow our dogs to mate a bitch unless the bitch is under the control of her owner (or another experienced handler) - too many things can go wrong if the dogs are just allowed to get on with it. One other thing to try would be for the owner to leave the room & another experienced person stands the bitch for the dog - sometimes an owner's presence can make first-time bitches nervous (because they pick up on the owner's tension).
However, if the bitch is really fighting & struggling (rather than just being a bit coy), then it suggests she is either not ready or she really does not want to be mated - in which case, she should not be forced to accept the dog - it's just one of those things.
Thanks for all the advice I will pass it on.I personally would not say that 2 and a half is a bit old for a first time especially as she was advised not to mate her bitch until she was between 18 months and 2 years by people on this forum.So she let the last heat go even though she was 16 months,and this is the first heat she's had since then,she's actually a bit younger anyway she was 2 in july.I don't have experience with cockers myself only springers but I may go along myself as maybe the dog is put off by her owner being there.What do you think???
14.11.02 13:38 GMT
I have to agree with you their and say that 2 1/2 isn't too old to have her first litter. If you were saying 5 or 6 then that is a totally different matter!! My friends have always had litters from their bitches from either 2 or 2 1/2 years old, depending on how the Season goes.
Her age is just right, my guess is she isn't ready, or just a little too coy, and doesn't know how to stand still. the ownere may also be putting her off if they are the fussing sort!
Not sure about the test result ,friend just told me she was ready.I think it's as you say a little to early for her.We've always had success with our ESS between days 11 and 14 but every dog is different.She is standing and her tail is going to one side but she just keeps spinning round or sitting down when he tries to mount.It's not as if the dogs don't know each other because they go out shooting together on a fairly regular basis.She did let them have a good 20 min playtime before attempting to mate but the bitch wasn't having any of it.
Me again, just felt I needed to write on this one as this was the same for me, 2 and a half yr old cocker spaniel, was told by the breeder not to mate til 2nd or third season, as she isn't regular we didn't catch the 2nd season, but managed with the 3rd. The breeder we took her to for the stud dog is very experienced - thank god, and she did have to help things along, i think my bitch was just choosy, 4 different stud dogs were tried over 2 different days (day 11 and day 13) and she was only happy and achieved a tie with the last of the 4, he wasn't quite the colour we wanted but fingers crossed we will get a litter of some solids and some not. I did have to hold my bitch to keep her quiet so to speak, she was only a bit grumbly but like someone else said up there when she grumbled the male hid (almost) ;). The actual breeder (Pam Walker - Cardamine) chose which of her stud's were suitable with my bitch ( Damasand and Cardamine - sire). So I am hoping all is well and that she is pregnant.
14.11.02 23:02 GMT
hi i have a 2 1/2 year old cocker and we tried to help her mate which was virtually impossible she was a maiden bitch so we took her to a registered stud and my bitch did have to have some help i now know that we could never have managed it in a month of sundays but with the experience of the stud handler we now have eight beautiful pups so my advice would be let the people who have experience guide you with her do not risk damaging a maiden bitch it just isnt worth it.. good luck.
15.11.02 13:28 GMT
If the bitch is "in the mood" she'll be rampantly wanting her dog. I would say Day 10/11 is too early into her season for a mating. In the olden days (creak creak ;)) when I had an adult male dog, I could keep him with my bitches when they were in-season up until Day 10 and then he went on his hols!!!
I have bred 3 litters from 2 bitches, both were mated on day 13 and I had 14 pups in each litter, both bitches were "rampant" to say the least! ;) And please, no comments about dogs being like their owners....thank you.
Took her to a different stud dog this morning,one I knew of but hadn't seen.Chap who owns him is very big in the field trial world and has springers,cockers and labs.I would say with years of experience he knows what he's doing.Anyway she let him get on with the dastardly deed,although they didn't infact tie,but she's going to have another go on the weekend and if that doesn't work then she'll call it a day
15.11.02 17:55 GMT
I am suprised that having spent time finding a suitable stud your friend should switch to another unrelated one, but may be that is more usual in working circles that pet/show ones. J:)
In my breed I have not had a fertile mating before day 14, and when my bitch has been mated earlier (and up to about 14 days) I have had misses or a small litter.
I have had two bitches who despite being rampant the males were not really hot for until day 15 and 16, and had litters of 7 to 9 after single matings on day 15!
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