Champdogs Information Exchange
I don't really understand health tests but I'm thinking of breeding my girl .
I've sent off the swabs so I no she is ok to breed with but are they pointless if dad isn't health tested ? I've found the perfect stud but he isn't huu or dm tested . Thank you
03.06.17 07:27 GMT
Just doing the health testing on your bitch is not really enough. You do need to know how to interpret the results and what they mean in relation to the results a male has. Some test or scores will reduce the males suitable for your choice and if the male you are looking at has none done then he is not a "perfect" stud. You need both to be fully compatible and unless you have his scores then you do not have any way of telling if he is or not. Look for a male who does compliment your bitch in health as well as temperament/type and looks. I think if you don't understand the health testing that you need to find a mentor in your breed who can explain it all and guide you through the breeding process fully. from start to finish.
03.06.17 07:43 GMT
If the condition is autosomal recessive (as is the case with HUU) then you could use an untested male only if your bitch is clear. Otherwise you run the risk of affected puppies. Worst case scenario is the stud is affected and if your bitch is clear you will produce carriers. If you are using an untested stud dog then not only is it NOT pointless to test, but it is absolutely ESSENTIAL to test.
Of course.... then there is the whole morality issue of using someone who does not care to test their dog but will use them at stud anyway.... I would not touch it with a bargepole. Ethics are more important than you may think.
> then there is the whole morality issue of using someone who does not care to test their dog but will use them at stud anyway.... I would not touch it with a bargepole
Nor would I!! And you need to find out about the grandparents too - some conditions skip a generation or two.
Health tests, relevant to each breed, are there to be used, as an aid to hopefully produce the best offspring possible.
03.06.17 10:21 GMT
What genetic conditions "skip"a generation or two ?
Surely a known gene that causes a condition is present or not in a dog, it cannot just suddenly occur in a dog ?
03.06.17 11:55 GMT
As Tectona has said the tests you have done are essential if you're going to use an untested dog. You have to assume the worst case scenario if you don't know otherwise, so assuming he is affected (that is tested affected, he may not be showing clinical signs) for HUU and DM you can only
use him if your bitch tested clear for both. If she is a carrier for one of these tests then there is a likelihood of producing affected puppies. As both conditions are difficult to cope with and potentially life limiting I'm sure you wouldn't want to risk breeding that into your pups, so well done getting your girl tested, please wait for the results and ONLY use this dog if your girl is double clear. If she is a carrier or worse affected for either you have to persuade the stud owner to have him tested or look elsewhere.
Personally I would look elsewhere for a stud dog because I would not want to potentially produce carriers either.
Thank you , I have found a dog that's a carrier so I will have to wait for my girls results .
> What genetic conditions "skip"a generation or two ?
Epilepsy can jump generations. Of course the gene will be there, if the epilepsy happens to be genetic and not acquired for some other reason. But that pre-supposes the intended breeder KNOWS the background of the dogs.
04.06.17 09:15 GMT
Some epilepsy is genetic in nature, but not a simple one & does not "skip" generations. The type of inheritance is not known at this time, genetic conditions cannot spontaneously appear the genes have to be present to cause the condition.
So many people appear to believe that ALL genetic conditions simply require both parents to pass on a gene to their offspring to cause the condition to manifest itself, sorry not so. Genetics are not that simple.
Of course not ALL epilepsy/seizures are genetic in origin which confuses people who do not fully understand the condition or genetics
> Some epilepsy is genetic in nature, but not a simple one & does not "skip" generations.
I'm sorry to disagree but after an outside stud dog I used developed epilepsy and was put down, I checked his pedigree and there was clear evidence to suggest it had skipped generations. It was there on his dam's side - would that I'd known and checked before I used him although in my defence the hound involved was a Champion and had been used by others before me!! I ended my line once I knew although none of the pups in that litter developed epilepsy (I kept two who didn't and I know I'd have heard from the owners of those I'd sold if they had!). I did say that not all epilepsy was inherited.
05.06.17 10:46 GMT
You clearly misunderstand about GENETIC conditions. IF a condition is caused by a defective gene that gene cannot skip a generation & spontaneously appear in the next generation. The gene is either inherited from a parent or it isn't. If it isn't inherited then that dog cannot pass it on to a subsequent generation. Hence the requirement to test all offspring of carriers(this is a requirement for the registration of puppies from carrier to normal from the ISDS & of course rejection of carrier/carrier offspring to discourage such ratings)to ensure that their status is known. Genetically normal dogs cannot pass on defective genes they do not carry therefore such genes cannot "skip"a generation.
Your example of epilepsy is a poor one as some forms are NOT genetic. I have a friend who gave her dog Bravecto, he began having seizures(a known contraindication of the drug), there is no known epilepsy in his pedigree & he's not a breed that is known to have an epilepsy problem. However using your reasoning his condition could have skipped a generation or 10 & the bloodlines should be ended ???
05.06.17 13:23 GMT
>IF a condition is caused by a defective gene that gene cannot skip a generation & spontaneously appear in the next generation.
That's exactly how recessive genes are in fact passed on. With idiopathic epilepsy the defect is the low fitting threshhold. All
animals have the potential to have seizures with particular triggers (as you described with your friend's dog and Bravecto; ACP was another known cause); the problem is when no particular trigger can be discovered. This tendency is believed to be recessive and can most certainly skip generations.
05.06.17 14:07 GMT
But if the GENE is not present in the parent it cannot be passed on by a dog that does not carry it. Not talking about the condition but the GENE. According to Mamabas the GENE can skip a generation, it cannot "skip" a generation. i.e. be present in a grandparent, not be present in either parent & then appear in the offspring, recessive or not. QED
Not the condition caused by a gene, but the gene itself
06.06.17 08:02 GMT
I'm sure Mamabas meant that the expression of the gene skips generations.
06.06.17 08:27 GMT
I made it quite clear I was writing about the gene not the condition. Sadly some people do not know the different between the two.
> I'm sure Mamabas meant that the expression of the gene skips generations.
You are not wrong
And I'd add 'can' skip generations. But I'm not fighting this one!!!
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