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- By Leisure [us] Date 14.08.01 12:34 GMT Edited 29.06.06 12:57 GMT
Hello

I wonder if there is anyone on the board who could give me some advice on what is the best age to have a puppy micro chipped.
I have been advised by a vet that the normal procedure is to have this done at 12 weeks, along side the final innoculation.
Has anyone on here had any experience of micro chipping at this age and was there any adverse reaction?
Thankyou

Leisure
- By Freeway [gb] Date 14.08.01 13:15 GMT
I had my Aussie chipped @ 12 weeks along with his final jab and he was fine. However, if done too young they tend to move. Our GBGV had his done with the rest of his litter so must havebeen about 8 weeks old and when we had him scanned @ 2 years old, the chip was down by his elbow. The vet said this happens when chipped too young as the muscles are still developing (or something like that :) )
- By Wendy J [gb] Date 14.08.01 13:53 GMT
I had both mine done with their final jabs. No movement. Movement of any in the last few years tends to be because it is not put in the right place. They have solved the movement problem quite a while ago - both with training and with a slight change of the make-up of it from my understanding.

wendy
- By Leisure [us] Date 14.08.01 15:03 GMT
Thankyou both for those comments.

One other question. If I have it done at this age, is there likely to be any discomfort when putting on his collar, as I want to start and take him out to socialize him ?

Leisure
- By Freeway [gb] Date 14.08.01 15:22 GMT
There shouldn't be any discomfort, but just in case, leave it for 24hrs until putting his collar on.
- By Kerioak Date 15.08.01 08:31 GMT
Hi,

I have chipped my two litters at 7 weeks so the chips have chance to settle before they go to their new homes. The only one that I am aware has moved slightly is the bitch I kept and that was only by about an inch (I check them as I see them again, and before they actually leave me).

There should be no problem with the collar as the correct site for chipping is between the shoulder blades and not on the neck.

Christine
- By Leigh [us] Date 15.08.01 08:49 GMT
I was interested in what you said about the chip being inserted between the shoulder blades Christine. That is where our bracco has his (and I scan him once a fortnight to see that the chip hasn't moved) but I do know of several dogs that have them in there necks ! As you know I have grave reservations about chipping, and the thought that tiny puppies are chipped fills me with horror.Does anyone keep records of problems that arise with a direct link from chipped dogs.... especially puppies ? Is there a minimum age that chips can be inserted into pup's ? Hope that you don't mind me asking so many questions but I would be interested to know the answers :-)

Leigh
- By Ingrid [gb] Date 15.08.01 10:51 GMT
All my dogs are chipped and have never had problems, the vet checks them every year when we go to him.
When I took my JR X PBGV for his first jabs and requested he be chipped the vet told me he would prefer to leave it till he was at least 6 months old and preferably 1 year because he felt the size of needle used could be traumatic for a small pup, the others have been rescues so done when they are older. And yes Leigh all mine are between the shoulder blades too.
Ingrid
- By Kerioak Date 15.08.01 11:56 GMT
Hi Leigh,

I was told that 7 weeks is the youngest they can be done, I don't think size is an issue because you can do kittens (!!) at the same age. (well, I can do cats with the training I have had ...... but ........ cats have these sharp things on the end of their toes! )

The chips have a special coating which bonds with the muscle to prevent it migrating. I was very very dubious about having any of my dogs microchipped for years and always had them tattooed.

Then the channel tunnel opened - pet passports started - rabies jabs were becoming more readily available and not trusting the various schemes (they are government run after all) wanted my pack innoculated against rabies asap and for that microchipping was necessary. So became a convert - and chip at training classes and shows as well as my own lot now.

Apparently some vet's still chip in the scruff in the same area that they vaccinate (probably have not read the instructions), here they are much more likely to migrate. On the continent they chip in the side of the neck - also apparently more likely to move - so if anyone is taking their dog abroad make sure the person scanning checks more than just the side of the neck.

I don't know if there is central scheme for checking on movement but I have asked all the owners of my chipped pups to let me know if they are still in place when they receive their annual vaccinations

Christine
- By Leigh [us] Date 15.08.01 15:49 GMT
Thanx for the reply Christine. :-)

Bear was chipped/rabies jabbed in Holland before we could import him.

So, no one is keeping an independent record of chip related 'problems' then ?

Leigh
- By Admin (Administrator) Date 29.11.06 12:24 GMT
Bump for the benefit of new members
- By norm [gb] Date 19.10.01 14:17 GMT
I read in one of the dog papers once - I'll dig it out but it'll take me a fortnight - that the scanners used are not standard - so if your dog goes missing out of a particular area, the scanner might not tally with the chip - if you see what I mean - I would be very worried about inserting anything like this into one of my dogs. I'll stick to discs and making sure the dog is never out of my sight - only had a dog go missing twice ( for a short time ) in 17 years.
Microchipping is another booming business - have you seen the ads in the backs of dog mags to learn how to micro-chip and run your own business - hmmm...sounds like a big marketing/ emotional blackmail ploy again to me - but then my middle name is cynical - you might be beginning to see that by now !!
- By Leisure [us] Date 19.10.01 17:49 GMT
Norm

Thankyou for you input.

As I started this thread it is very interesting to hear all the different views on micro chipping.
Your point about not all scanners being able to read all chips is I think valid, and was one of my main concerns.
Despite reassurances I still have doubts that it is the right way to go.
I don't wish to sound cynical, but it does appear to have become a business for some people, which in itself is fine, as long as it is the best way of indentification.

Regards
Leisure
- By Jane Ashwell [gb] Date 05.02.03 12:42 GMT
In reply to the question "Does anyone keep records of chips that go wrong?" I DO. I will only keep records on chip movement that I have checked for myself, But as I chip quite a lot, and ask if I can scan as many chipped dogs as I can at shows where we have trade stands, I check quite a lot. With only one exception, every migrated chip that I have found has been implanted by a vet in the scruff of the neck, instead of by a trained chipper who will implant in the correct site which is in between the shoulder blades. I chip my own litters at about 8 wks of age and have never had one move. These are min smooth Dachs which have a fair bit of loose skin and weigh between 3-6 lbs. I have no reservations whatsoever about chipping. The only dog I have refused to chip was an early in whelp bitch that I didnt want to risk upsetting, and I wont chip a dog at a show, if it is that dogs first show. Many vets do a great job but unfortunately there are always going to be tha few that buy these chips (if you are a vet then you need no training or even knowledge of implant site) and shove them in the scruff because it is easier. I would recommend leaving 10 days or so between chipping and vaccinating. There is no medical reason for this, it is just my opinion. Insist on a chip that is registered to the Petlog database (new legislation will be coming in soon) and if your vet cant oblige re Petlog or implant site, then ask your dog warden. Most offer discounted chipping in your own home and all are properly trained and insured.
- By Schip Date 05.02.03 14:39 GMT
I have posted before about a litter of mine that were microchipped at home and had problems. They were 7 wks old and chipped by a trained chipper as opposed to a vet and we had 2 migrating chips and 1 failure in a litter of 5 puppies. The failed chip had to be replaced and all paperwork rushed thru as the puppy was due to leave for Germany a few days later. My kittens on the other hand were chipped by our vet when they were neutered and apart from a reaction to the skin cleansing agent in my queen their chips have not moved or failed.
- By Wendy J [gb] Date 15.08.01 19:47 GMT
Savannah had her collar on at the time it was injected - I didn't take her for on lead walks or anything for the next day or so as she was still quite young, and had only just had her final injections and was advised to wait a week after that before taking out.

She rough and tumbled right away with our older dog though - the usual mouthing round the neck - not a problem.

Wendy
- By Pammy [gb] Date 15.08.01 12:16 GMT
Hi

Don't know what happened but I replied to this message yesterday - but my reply has gone - boo hoo. Anyway - Both my boys - Cocker Spaniels, were done as little pups. One at seven weeks the other at 12 weeks, both done between the shoulder blades, not the scruff of the neck and no problems at all. No movement, I can just feel Jasper's beneath the surface of the skin. Can't feel Buddy's but that's prob cause he is so young, 14 weeks, and has so much skin etc there at the mo. If the chip is placed between the shoulder blades, I can't see how it would interfere with a collar at all.

The breeder did Jasper so I don't know if he cried - probably did - he's a wimp with injections lol. Buddy who is a wimp if you try to hold him by the scruff, never made a sound even though it is quite a large needle due to the chip being the size of a rice grain.

Hope this helps

Pam n co
- By Kerioak Date 15.08.01 14:57 GMT
Hi Pammy and anyone else with a microchipped dog

DON'T FIDDLE !!

Don't try to find the chip because it should be inserted quite deep and could be tender for the dog if you do, also you could dislodge it and cause it to move

It is quite possible that Jasper did not make a sound - none of my pups have - they don't jump or wriggle or even seem to notice it is being done.

A 6 month old terrier I did on the other hand turned around and bit me!

Christine
- By Freeway [gb] Date 15.08.01 15:19 GMT
Isn't it funny how different dogs react to things differently. When Tyler had his chip inserted, he just buried his head in my coat and didn't cry out or anything. My neighbour's little Westie, however, screamed like he was being killed or something. They both had them done at 12 weeks.
- By Leigh [us] Date 15.08.01 15:29 GMT
Think it is down to the operator Freeway ! When I spent several months in hospital, there was a male nurse who had to come and stick a B***** great needle in my thigh daily....he NEVER hurt me once, but when he was replaced by Florence B. Nightingale she always managed to "Stab" me with it *tut* infact I am sure that she took much 'job satisfaction' in making sure she did it in a way that inflicted as much pain as possible.

Must be the same with the chip's methinks :-)

Leigh

NB:I wasn't implying that 'Chippers'(?) deliberately hurt! Just that some were better at it than others ! Christine, do they make you practice on oranges too ?
- By lourisma [gb] Date 15.08.01 17:22 GMT
I have seen various adverts about training to become a 'chipper' can anyone shed any light on this as I am quite interested to become involved and am considering getting my lot chipped very soon.

Thanks
Louise and the Lourisma Cockers.
- By Bec [gb] Date 15.08.01 19:07 GMT
I am now a trained 'lay' chipper. I trained at the College of Animal Welfare at Woodgreen Animal Shelter. I would be wary of courses held by people who claim you can chip animals such as parrots and horses after being on their courses as you cannot. The chipping of these species requires an invasive procedure and therefore HAS to be done by a veterinary surgeon. Chipping under the skin us deemed to be non-invasive so the RCVS has deemed it OK for lay people to chip such as myself.
- By Leigh [us] Date 16.08.01 07:41 GMT
NON INVASIVE !

Dictionary: Invasive: to enter, occupy or penertrate   or how about: involving entry into a living body (as by incision or by insertion).

So how do the vets work out that it is NON INVASIVE ?? Is the chip inserted under the skin or not? Does it not penertrate the skin after all? :confused:

What happens if the procedure goes wrong ? Does a vet intervene then? Or do you hop the dog up onto your kitchen table and perform a NON INVASIVE removal of said chip ?

1)Who monitors the "chipper"?
2)Is there a governing body?
3)Who do the operators answer to ?
4)Are regular 'spot checks' carried out on operators?
5)How often do you have to attend a refresher course ?

If it goes wrong , where does the "buck" stop?

Questions,questions,questions !
Hope someone can shed some light on the answers :-)

Leigh.
NB:Edit on 18/08/01 to unclude numbers
- By Jane Ashwell [gb] Date 05.02.03 12:57 GMT
By non-invasive, they mean that the chip in dogs and cats goes into the tissue between the shoulder blades. With other species it is in different sites and often intramuscular. With birds it is placed in the breast muscle and requires a fair knowledge of anatomy that us lay chippers do not usually possess.
- By norm [gb] Date 19.10.01 19:42 GMT
Ha , ha , ha, ha, ha , ha , ha , ha ha , ha,

poor Leigh - you have my sympathies - my sis is a nurse - wait til i tell her !!
- By Leisure [us] Date 16.08.01 12:58 GMT
Thankyou for all your advice.

There seems to be some differing opinions with regards chipping. I am now a little concerned whether or not to go ahead. From most of your answers it seems the age query is not consisdered a problem.

Could anyone please clarify the following points for me :

1. "The chip should be placed between the shoulder blades, but some vets still insert the chip into the neck". In that case is it advisable to have it done by a Lay Dog Chipper who I presume will always insert between the shoulder blades.

2. "If put in correctly I shouldn't be able to feel the chip under the skin, but if I can don't touch it as it may result in the chip moving". How big a problem is this.?

Is there any data kept indicating problems arising from chipping or migrating chips.? Do they ever have to be removed.?

And finally are the scanners used now universal and able to read all chips.?

Thankyou
Leisure
- By Wendy J [gb] Date 16.08.01 13:15 GMT
go to http://www.indentichip.co.uk and it has a lot of questions answered there, but yes you want it in the shoulderblades. I have whippets - I can feel the one in the neck of my pup because the skin is so thin, but I don't *fiddle*. However, it's nice to see that it doesn't move.

I have the vet check once a year with both of them (at vaccination time) to see if they're where they're supposed to be.

Yes chips and scanners these days are universal. I wouldn't worry in the slightest. Just be sure your vets done lots and ask about % that move. That should put your fears to rest.

Wendy

ps - for some reason the direct link doesn't want to work, but if you put www.identichip.co.uk into your browser it should. It works when I put it in myself, but not when I click the link

Wendy
- By Leigh [us] Date 16.08.01 14:18 GMT
Wendy, I take it Identichip are manufacturers ? I will go and look at their site :-) Thanx for the address. Leigh
- By Kerioak Date 16.08.01 15:28 GMT
I could not get into the identichip site :-( but I trained with Pet ID who are at
http://www.pet-id.net although they don't mention training at their site.

Do we have any vet's on the list - do they have to notify anyone about migrating chips?

Christine

Edited - OK I give up HOW do you get the links to work??????

Leigh Note: Check out the link Christine. :-)

http://www.pet-id.net just practicing!
- By Bec [gb] Date 16.08.01 18:51 GMT
I was trained by Pet-ID too! I am insured for carrying out this procedure so that in the unlikely event that a problem arises everyone is covered! I didn't say it was non-invasive just that the RCVS has deemed it thus to enable lay person to carry the procedure out. Much like the many exemptions under the veterinary surgeons act which allows certain procedures to be carried out by non veterinarians.
Personally I think tattooing is a waste of money. Taking dogs abroad requires them to be chipped and nearly all countries prefer chipping rather than tattooing and I do believe that this will end up being the ONLY method of identification.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 17.08.01 21:40 GMT
I have all my puppies tatooed by the NDTR using the small calipers, and have found the numbers very clear up to 4 years later, the ones done with the large calipers are legible but with my poor eyesight difficult for me to decipher easily. I beleive in a belt and braces approach, mine get chipped later, and I advise new owners to have it done if they wish! Mine also always wear collars with tags, all the time, even if it does damage the coat slightly for showing! Safety first!!

As a breeder of a breed that comes in one colour I like to be able to identify each pup, without being forced to purchase an expensive piece of machinery to ensure the correct pup goes with the correct chip documentation.
- By Leigh [us] Date 18.08.01 15:02 GMT
So, do I get answer's to my questions or not? :-)

Edited by Leigh at 4.20pm
- By Bec [gb] Date 18.08.01 15:45 GMT
Sorry forgot to answer these! I believe Robert Killick was supposedly keeping a record about problems associated with chipping but not sure how far he got and I doubt if he would get all the associated problems. I believe that chip migration is less of a problem now as the chips are coated with a pitted bio-chemical coating to assist with adhesion and also the actual chipping site and implantation method has been altered.
I don't think there is a minimum age (I was told that they have chipped a 2 wk old mouse!) although personally, in view of the very nature of tiny puppies being carried around by their mothers, implantation of very young pups is probably inadvisable as the bitch licking or carrying the pups may cause the chips to move, especially those breeds that have skins they need to grow into! I had my last litter done at 7 weeks by my vet who didn't seem to think it was a problem at that age and the dog I kept still has his in the same place as did his brother who was sadly returned to me although is now in a new home!
- By Leigh [us] Date 18.08.01 19:13 GMT
Thank you for your reply Bec :-) but I am still none the wiser as to the answers to my questions!

When you are trained to chip, are these area's not included in your course? Did you not think to enquire, just incase your clients were interested in the answers?
Lastly, you "don't think" that there is a minimum age? Were you not offered this information on your course? :confused:

Many thanks.

Leigh
- By carolyn Date 18.08.01 20:30 GMT
Leigh
there isnt a minimum age however it is up to the microchipper
an 8 week old rottie is by far a better size for chipping than an 8 week old JR
its all down to common sense really,
Not sure what your other questions were,but i plan to ask the lady who ran our course to answer any questions anyone may have,
lets see if she will join us.
Carolyn
- By Leigh [us] Date 18.08.01 22:21 GMT
Hi Carolyn.

Thank you for your reply :-) I am not trying to be differcult here, I would like to know the answers !

I am glad that common sense does come into it too !

It would be interesting if your Instructor could shed some light on the subject as there seems to be a lack of information at the moment.

Good to see you, by the way.

Leigh
- By Brainless [gb] Date 24.08.01 07:21 GMT
I am on an Email list for my breed, and have heard of quite a few cases of chips migrating, the owneras only concerns seemed to be locating it when scanning. I hate the idea of them moving, but so far each time I go to vets the chips are where they were put!
- By Bec [gb] Date 24.08.01 17:13 GMT
It is rare for a chip to move once it has adhered to the surrounding tissue. So after about a month from being chipped when scanned that is where it should be throughout the rest of the animals life. However I would recommend getting the chip checked before embarking on the pet passport scheme and if you travel regulalry it may be in your best interests to purchase your own scanner that will read your dogs chips (most will do all chips now) and take it with you when you go.
- By Wendy J [gb] Date 17.08.01 14:30 GMT
Yes it is the manufacturer for what I understand to be the main chip now in the UK.

Wendy
- By Kerioak Date 18.08.01 20:43 GMT
I was given seven weeks as the minimum age for chipping

Christine
- By Leigh [us] Date 18.08.01 22:22 GMT
Thank you Christine :-)
- By Bec [gb] Date 19.08.01 09:08 GMT
I'm sure each manufacturer of chips must keep a record of those where they have had problems. I was trained by Pet-ID and they only had 2 genuine cases of microchip failure i.e. being unable to be read, others where they have claimed to have failure have proven to be as a result of trauma (one dog had fallen 10 feet onto concrete and another one had been beaten both resulting in the chip being damaged and being unable to be read) As I said before migration is not the problem now as it used to be.
- By Leigh [us] Date 19.08.01 09:54 GMT
Migration is NOT the question that I would like answered here Bec ! I KNOW that they have improved 100%.I can read the literature too!The questions that I WOULD like answered are the ones that YOU, the operator are choosing to ignore ! I take it from this that you do not know the answers. In which case , why are you allowed to carry out the procedure, when you obviously have no idea who to report to IF and when it goes wrong !!!

Leigh
- By Bec [gb] Date 19.08.01 11:03 GMT
As far as I can see Leigh I have done my best to answer your questions but as you appear to be very anti chip nothing I say will change your mind. I've told you that as far as I am aware there is no minimum age, they have chipped a 2 wk old mouse so a day old puppy is able to be chipped. I just wouldn't do it at that age as I don't think the site would be stable. There is no central register for problems with chips the same for problems with tattoos which seem to be far more common place than tattooists would have you believe if you read the web boards.
If I had a problem with the chips I use then quite obviously I would go back to the manufacturer of the chip as anyone would who had purchased a faulty product or had any common sense. Quite frankly that was not the question you asked. You asked whether there was a 'log' of chip problems, I have answered this several times and the minimum age which I have also answered several times. So what exactly do you want to know that I haven't answered so I can help you.
- By Leigh [us] Date 19.08.01 11:13 GMT
Hi Bec.

16.08.01 ....... Questions 1-5 !

If I have overlooked your answers to these questions, I apologise and ask that you draw my attention to your answers?

I am NOT anti-chipping at all. I have said MANY times that it does not matter which form of permanent ID that you choose as long as you choose one !!! I do have my doubts about chips, but I certainly wouldn't discard them in the manner that you did tattoos!

We are not talking about Tattoos here, we are talking about CHIPS.

Leigh
- By Tripsox [us] Date 19.08.01 13:08 GMT
If a vet chipped, and it went wrong, you have various options, like free vets bills as the problem is sorted, or you can report the vet to the govening body, or sue the vet in court.
If something went wrong with a puppy who had been chipped by a private person-what then? Just wondered, as I would like to qualify to chip, but do you have to take out insurance or what?
- By Kerioak Date 19.08.01 14:31 GMT
To my knowlege these are the answer's to Leigh's 1 - 5 questions these answers have since been amended - see below to message of 20.8.01

)Who monitors the "chipper"? No one once trained and checked by a vet
2)Is there a governing body? No
3)Who do the operators answer to ? No one
4)Are regular 'spot checks' carried out on operators? No
5)How often do you have to attend a refresher course ? Never been suggested yet.

Now to turn it around and ask different questions :-)

What happens if a puppy's ear rips or fills with blood between
inner and out parts whilst being tattooed? Who should pay for any treatment,
owner or tattooist.

Who is responsible if the tattoo cannot be read
a - as soon as the excess ink has worn off
b - later in life

Should they be re-tattooed, where, and at whose expense?

Christine
- By Leigh [us] Date 19.08.01 15:24 GMT
Christine, thank you very much for answering my questions :-)

I hope there is a tattooist amongst us that can answer your questions.

Leigh
- By Bec [gb] Date 19.08.01 15:52 GMT
Leigh I have disregarded tattooing due to personal experience and those of my firends who have had dogs tattooed. I resent the implication that tattooing is 100% effective by pro-tattooists. This is not the case but the way they slate chipping you'd think it was by far the most effectove way whioch has not proven the case in my experience. I'm insured for my chipping but I wonder how many tattooists are insured for failures? Maybe I ought to go back to the NSTR regarding the failure of the tattoo one of my dogs has?
- By Leigh [us] Date 19.08.01 16:20 GMT
Bec,

I have never said that Tattoos are 100% effective. My experience of them is that they are very effective for what I am trying to achieve. There is good and bad in both methods. I have no intention of turning this into a chip v tattoo debate.

Christine has very kindly answered my questions, and I am grateful to her for doing so. I am happy with her reply, although I am NOT happy with the answers !!!

Leigh
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