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Up Topic Other Boards / FAQ / ~ Pinch & Prong Collars ~
- By Leigh [gb] Date 03.11.02 21:28 GMT
Firstly, this thread is not about E-Collars. So please do not turn this thread into another debate on that issue.  Duplicate posts will be removed :-)

With recent posts advising on the use of Pinch or Prong collars, we (Paul & I) thought it may be of interest to some of the more novice owners/handlers to see what people are talking about and see how collars, such as the Pinch or Prong collar work.

Pinch or Prong Collars are made from a series of (usually) metal, pairs of links and when the chain is tightened, they squeeze small amounts of flesh all around the dogs neck.  Pinch or Prong collars are not intended to be a normal, everyday collar. They are purely for training and are a *tool*.
"The collar is worn high on the neck of the dog, just below the ears*". It can be adjusted accordingly by removing a link. These collars should never be left on an unsupervised dog and NEVER used on a puppy.

If you must use this type of training aid, please get experienced dog handlers to show you how to use them safely and correctly. In the wrong hands these collars can cause serious injury.

Spike Training Collars* are not to be confused with pinch or prong collars. They are an ordinary looking leather or nylon collar with spikes inserted on the inside. The spikes do not retract. They stick out of the collar and into the dogs neck all the time the collar is on.

In some countries, collars of this nature are not acceptable or available to buy.

*see link in lower post.
- By steve [gb] Date 03.11.02 21:33 GMT
thanks for that Leigh ,I had wondered about them ,( not considered using them ) but that makes it crystal clear to me .
Liz :)
- By BethN [gb] Date 03.11.02 21:54 GMT
Oh my god !! Well, they look like some form of horrible medieaval (sp - too much wine) torture thing to me... I think I'd rather keep going with the halti thanks !!!

Thanks for that though Leigh, have often wondered just exactly what people were talking about. Was even advised to use one of these on Jake once but they don't look too nice to me.....

Beth
- By steve [gb] Date 03.11.02 21:55 GMT
Beth ---we could share one !!!!!!!!!!:D
Liz
- By John [gb] Date 03.11.02 22:05 GMT
I must say I've never seen one in use, but just by looking at the photograph I'd say that if I ever needed to use one of these I'd give up dogs! These things look to me to be barbaric!

John
- By mari [ie] Date 03.11.02 22:16 GMT
I use a choke chain I never have to check them hard. I just like to feel secure in the knowledge I can control the dog if a problem should arise.
I do have the padded grip of a carryall with the velcro opening on the bit in front of neck and have been thinking I must cut up an old Anorak and sew velcro on to it and use for all of them
Mari
- By John [gb] Date 03.11.02 22:22 GMT
I used check chains for years Marie, but these thing! Never!!!
- By eoghania [de] Date 03.11.02 22:39 GMT
Hi John,
Did you happen to read my postings on the "Head Halter" thread? I don't want to become repetitive :rolleyes: :)
But these collars (even though they LOOK horrible) have their uses when necessary and properly used.
There are dogs out there that just don't respond to a training collar, despite everything going 'right' in their education. And there are many people who think that a regular training collar is brutal too, esp. when properly 'snapped' to get a dogs attn. :(

Never heard of the "spike" collar before that Leigh mentions. That does seem cruel since it appears as if the dog can't loosen up the pressure no matter where he steps. :(
jmho
toodles :cool:
- By Leigh [gb] Date 03.11.02 22:50 GMT Edited 14.02.08 19:45 GMT
No offence to anyone, but the whole point of this thread is not for people to justify their own methods, but to draw attention to the collars under debate :-)

[Admin: dead link removed]
- By eoghania [de] Date 03.11.02 23:05 GMT
I think that might be virtually impossible to separate one from the other, Leigh :) We're only human :D

But what is the "Forced" spike leather collar supposed to do exactly? I just see too many possible avenues of abuse and not really a path to create a proper "Pressure and Release" training method :confused: :(

I do know that outside of this board, there are still many of the 'old-school' dog owners that believe a properly trained dog is a severly subjugated one :rolleyes: Hey, there's wife-beating and child abuse going on as I write...so using something that can aid the brute force method isn't completely inconceivable --to my disapointment :(
jmo
toodles :cool:
- By dot [gb] Date 03.11.02 23:15 GMT
Eog,
Snap on your ideas about the spike collars. You must type faster than me ;) (wouldn't be difficult :))
Dot
- By eoghania [de] Date 03.11.02 23:18 GMT
Yeah, I guess I type fairly fast --- but it probably makes up for my snail-paced and very messy handwriting ;) :D :)
:cool:
- By Leigh [gb] Date 03.11.02 23:56 GMT
Sara, whilst we can appreciate your sentiments on wife/child abuse, we feel that it is irrelevant to this subject :-) The point of this thread is to show people the different training collars that are available for specific purposes .. not utilised for *anything*.

These collars are freely available for ANYONE to buy, and the purpose of this thread is only to point out the differing types :-)

What purpose could that *spike* collar be for?

The only obvious "purpose" that we can see, would be to keep the dog *looking* straight ahead, *focused* .. giving the impression of full concentration. Not something we would resort to or recommend.
- By dollface Date 04.11.02 00:10 GMT
I don't know if this will work or if I'm able/allowed to do this but if not is there away to put up the site so people can read how these different collars are used. This is the site if you would like to read up on the collars and how they are used. I myself found it interesting. I have never heard of the spike collar, thats knew to me. Sorry for putting this if I'm not allowed to. :(

www.canismajor.com/dog/prong.html
- By eoghania [de] Date 04.11.02 07:14 GMT
Good site to read, Doll.
I also found this one interesting : Training with prong collar

Sorry Leigh, that you don't like my analogy. I'll remove it if you insist. But I have a strong feeling that the "Forced Spike collar" the one that's fastened by buckle, and not based on pressure/release is not as innocently used as one might think :(

I've been searching on the web for the last half hour trying to find a site that explains how it's employed --- (never knew there were rewritten Buffy episodes with rather naughty and crude imagery before :rolleyes: )

So far, nada for info. Prong collars, lots of info for/against. But with the 'forced spike collars" the absolute lack of material out there is rather suspect, imo.
Since there are dog breeders who still train and raise their dogs for aggression and prowess (in the US, I wouldn't assume this anywhere else) they would use these collars as control, not necessarily to make the dog look straight or 'sharp'. Just because 'dog fighting' is illegal, doesn't mean it's not going on :(
:cool:
- By dollface Date 04.11.02 11:49 GMT
Checked it out, thanks eoghania.

I don't think it is (prong) for every dog, but some dogs do benefit from it. I have put it on my arm and it never hurt, a slight pinching feeling and that was all. With my dog I don't have to give any kind of correction, he does it all on his own. I'm even being able to use the buckle more and more, and hopefully soon just the buckle. I don't know anything about the SPIKE collar and won't comment on it because I don't know how it is used or works. In my opinion I just think that people should see how something is used instead of commenting on how something looks.
You have to undo the links to remove a prong, they should never be left on, they are only used for training.
- By mari [ie] Date 04.11.02 00:12 GMT
The spikes look like instruments of torture .
I am sorry but no . If I had to resort to that I would do the same as John JUST GIVE UP .
- By Christine Date 04.11.02 07:33 GMT
Hi all, the prong collar is the type that a dog I have staying came with. Tok a photo of it & was going to send it to Phillipa to confirm, as I`ve never seen them before. All I can say is the dog was pulling it`s owner and when I tried to take it off him in the kennels it trapped mt finger & there was no give in it all, fortunately the dog stood still & after a couple of mins I got my finger out. Thanks for the links Leigh now we all know what they look like.
Christine, Spain
- By dot [gb] Date 03.11.02 23:10 GMT
Leigh,

I'd never heard of prong or spike collars till the recent threads so it's very interesting to see them. Thanks for the links. I think I can see how the prong collar would work and it looks as if the prongs stay flat if the dog doesn't pull but why would anyone use a "spike"collar? I'm not wanting to start anything, I can see why a prong collar might be used, I just can't see why a spike one would. :confused:
Dot
- By Jackie H [gb] Date 04.11.02 07:13 GMT
Leigh I put 'Pinch Collar' in to a search and the picture on there was a wide leather collar with 'studs or spikes' on the inside, it would appear that even the people who sell such collars are not sure what they are talking about, but then people do that with puppies too. Jackie

Have just used your link, that looks even worse than the one I had seen, could never put that on a dog of mine, there must be another way.
- By Leigh [gb] Date 04.11.02 09:41 GMT
Hi Jackie, this is the very reason that we decided to draw the different collars to peoples attention and provide links to show the difference :-) The collars are being recommend for use on the forum and people are mistaking a pinch/prong collars for a 'spike' collar.
The 'spike' collar is a very different collar, as the dog has no means of 'escaping' from the spikes.

The pinch/prong collar does have it's use, but there is confusion because people are also refering to it as a 'spike' collar. The people advocating the use of the pinch/prong collar are not correcting this 'name' mistake. This, we feel is dangerous because both collars are freely available to all.

Also,to say that the pinch/prong collar does not hurt the dog is not true. Of course it hurts! That is why it is very effective and works :-) No, we are not recommending it's use.
- By Lara Date 04.11.02 12:29 GMT
Hi Leigh

I have used a prong collar on occasion in the past. Correctly fitted the collar evenly distributes pressure on the dogs neck which is potentially less damaging than an ordinary choke chain.
I would however question your advising that the collar is positioned high up behind the ears. No! this is not correct. The collar should be midway in the neck. Too high can cause damage to the dog.

Lara
- By Leigh [us] Date 04.11.02 13:33 GMT Edited 14.02.08 19:51 GMT
Hi Lara,

More confusion then :-)

The sites that we looked at all said "High on the dogs neck".
I have listed only three here:

Dog Owners Guide to the prong collar

"It should fit snugly just below the dog's ears".

Fitting a Prong Collar

"The collar should be fitted snugly, just behind the dog's ears. 'Snug' means tight enough to stay in place without pinching into the dog's skin."

I have now looked at even more sites and did find one or two that said "lower on the dogs neck", but most advocated use just below the dogs ears?

Personally, I think if it is that effective, it doesn't need to go that high up the neck.

Leigh
- By gwen notts [gb] Date 04.11.02 13:48 GMT
Well after looking at them i think they are horrific, i have staffords which pull but would never use one of these on my dogs no matter how much they pulled
- By Lara Date 04.11.02 18:15 GMT
Hi Leigh

Thanks for the links - I still have to disagree :(. I personally don't like to see any dog 'strung up' by a collar so high up the neck whether it be a prong or a choke.
That high on the neck can only interfere with the performance of the dog ie: breathing and positioning of the head and would be in my opinion for the sole ease of the handler. May be effective in a heelwork scenario but would be restrictive and potentially damaging in highly driven exercises like baiting etc...

Confusion indeed :)
- By Leigh [us] Date 04.11.02 19:57 GMT
Lara, you are totally missing the point of the thread :-)

This thread is to show people what these collars look like. Not to promote or condemn them. But it has highlighted that there is a differing of opinion on where these collars should be placed! So for the novice/new dog owner, which is whom this thread was aimed at, there is confusion already :-) But in essence that is not what this thread is about.

Two points that I will pick up on though:

These collars are readily available to buy. There are quite a few sites on the net that sell them. Anyone can buy one at any time :-)

Lara, as you can see by last sentence in the above post I too, see NO need for the placement of these collars to be behind the dogs ears. So who are you disagreeing with? I also can't see where I mentioned 'stringing dogs up'?
I have showed you where my 'quotes' about 'high up the neck' came from ;-)

If you want to argue with someone about the correct placement of said collars, maybe you should take it up with the people who advocate using them in this manner :P
- By steve [gb] Date 04.11.02 20:05 GMT
Leigh
I found the post very informative I too have had these suggested to me and as they are not something you can go and have a look at in most pet stores then they were a mystery to me .
I must add this mr &mrs brown ?
have you been spiying (sp) on me and steve ? :D
Liz
- By John [gb] Date 04.11.02 21:56 GMT
I can see where you are coming from Leigh and could not agree more. So often when we write on here we make assumptions about people’s knowledge. To recommend the use of something without giving detailed advice and instructions could so easily result in injury to a dog. And this does not only apply to equipment but also to methods we use to correct a problem or help with a medical condition!

Regards, John
- By dollface Date 04.11.02 22:54 GMT
I would just like to thank you Leigh for putting those other sites up. I have read them before but I'm still figuring a lot of computer stuff out and can't figure out how to post sites on the board. I was surprised to see those sites, I was trying to get them up, but you beat me to it, and well knowing me they never would of made it. :)
- By julie white [gb] Date 04.11.02 13:40 GMT
I was under the impression that these collars are banned in the UK, can't remember where I read or heard it.
Is that correct or is there another type that I'm getting confused with? :confused:
- By Lara Date 04.11.02 18:17 GMT
Prong Collar use has been withdrawn from the police and prison dog services. They are not banned in the UK although they are not readily for sale.
- By Leigh [us] Date 04.11.02 19:21 GMT
Ok .. we feel that the point that we have tried to make has missed the spot.
My fault, I have not explained what I meant properly. We feel this is important, so will try again. Please bear with me :-)

Hypothetical scenario ...

Mr and Mrs Brown have purchased a puppy. It is now 6-8 months old and they have done nothing with it :-( It is now a little bugga :rolleyes: When they walk it, the dog is now dragging them round the streets. Mrs Browns arm is coming out of the socket and Mr Brown does not "want to be seen out with this lunatic dog" :mad:

They have made enquiries about having it trained. Having already spent £500 buying the dog in the first place, then another £100 on various *cures*:eek: they are very fed up and have no intention of forking out another £60 an hour to try and get it under control.

While surfing the net they find this site ;-) They have never posted on it, but start to read various posts about prong/pinch/spike collars.

Yippeeeeeeee!!!! These collars seem the answer to their prayers!

Mr & Mrs Brown have never *SEEN* a prong/pinch/spike collar, but ....

"they must work ... look at all the positive reports!"

Although, one post does mention to "get advice on fitting this type of collar",

Mr Brown says "they must come with instructions. It can't be that hard to put a collar round a dogs neck! We will give it a go Doris".

So off Mr & Mrs Brown go with their £40 and purchase both collars :-)

At NO time have they posted asking advice on the site.

They have no idea what they are doing and if they have a dog that can not take the *prong/pinch* aproach, it will only be a matter of time before they jerk the collar and the poor dog will turn round and bite them or worse!

The whole point of our post, was so that folk could *see* them and know what they are before buying them. Because once they have bought the collar, even if they think they look *iffy* they will still try them out.

By highlighting and posting link 'pictures' of these collars, it has given folk the chance to think and see exactly what they are buying. Many will think ..*I don't want to spear the dog* and maybe not buy? Once people have them in their hands and the purchase has been made, human nature dictates "well we have it now .. might as well give it a go now"

There is nothing wrong in *talking* about these things. It is and can be educational and obviously was to a lot on the board :-) but not many posters who had read the original post had gone off and ran a search to *see* what they were.

This post is not being or meant to be inflamatory or telling people not to mention them again. They exist and thats a fact :-)

It is good to know about all kinds of training aids, whether you aprove or not :-) But we need to be 'clear' about what we write.
- By Melodysk [gb] Date 04.11.02 19:26 GMT
Leigh

I have to say that I have found this thread very informative ...it has been interesting following the links and reading most of the comments ..with very little recourse to the odd comments we have sometimes had on the forum

Thanks all

Melody
- By Julieann [gb] Date 06.11.02 13:51 GMT
Leigh very informative too. Good thread.
- By Admin (Administrator) Date 14.02.08 19:48 GMT
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Up Topic Other Boards / FAQ / ~ Pinch & Prong Collars ~

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