Champdogs Information Exchange
Ian Dunbar, often classed as the originator of the common, amusing & ineffective with all but naturally owner compliant biddable dogs has finally acknowledged he has been talking a load of piffle for years.
Ian Dunbar-"Over the past 15 years though, things have begun to drift and pet dog training urgently requires a massive overhaul to put it back on course.
Positive reinforcement conditioning whistle recalls including demos on how to use food treats.http://bit.ly/1gnDkkJ
Positive reinforcement conditioning e-collar tone for recalls + multiple examples.http://bit.ly/1g1kLCj
I see nothing there that says that, only that people are not phasing out the lures, and are stuck at stage one of training (usually enough for many pet owners)..
01.01.14 20:52 GMT
I take it you are pro e collar training then Hethspaw ??
Ian Dunbar was not the originator of reward based training, it's not a new"thing"& there are many very good dog trainers out there who have never used force/e collars/punishment training & who were training before Ian Dunbar became a Dr, not just with biddable dogs either
Oh yeah!! ;)
The article is almost 4 years old.
01.01.14 21:47 GMT
01.01.14 21:54 GMT
I take it you are pro e collar training then Hethspaw ??
Of course I am, I always like to keep up with modern training, they are the most common significant training aid in the uk, average annual sales were 75,000pa in 2010 when Duncan McNair last put figs out.
Maybe you'de like some lessons, the guy below will sell you some, if you can afford it, if not you can check if Martin Deeleys running more workshops this summer, it was only £495 last summer if you brought your dog, 3 day workshop, Im sure you can manage that to learn a bit about collar use, I am bit beyond your pocket but Martin Deeley is reasonable enough prices.http://www.offwhere.co.uk/details/martin-deeley-training-course/372588/
Of course you can watch a video on e-collar confidence building with a nervous dog & see if you learn a bit - below e-collar confidence building with nervous Dalmation - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq1yPufvxhI
01.01.14 22:04 GMT
> I am bit beyond your pocket
LOL :) :)
>Of course you can watch a video on e-collar confidence building with a nervous dog & see if you learn a bit - below e-collar confidence building with nervous Dalmation
At 19.06 there was a very
anxious dog, desperately looking around for a sign of security. tragic that the handler didn't recognise that. :-(
> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I always like to keep up with modern training
Torture is actually a very traditional method of forcing compliance...
>amusing & ineffective with all but naturally owner compliant biddable dogs has finally acknowledged he has been talking a load of piffle for years.
I recall from previous recent threads you [Hethspaw] are something of a fan of very hyperbolic retorts to sweeping generalisations (perceived or otherwise) made by other members. I will refrain from using your 50 million explanation marks and questions marks but I will call you to account as you do others...
Where is your evidence for this?
Don't worry... I am of course joking!
I own a breed not
of the 'owner compliant biddable' ilk. Yet I have an owner compliant biddable dog. Many times over the years on this forum I have invited you to see this for yourself (started some 7 years ago when you posted a video of a husky and e collar) then as now you ignore me. I am not alone, I know of many 'independent' breeds consistent in behavior through training without the use punishing or painful methods (also through my line of work Military and Police dogs)..... But this evidence doesn't suit your agenda and so you simply ignore it!
This, dear reader, tells you everything of the caliber of the complainant.
I think I shall now just take another leaf from your book Hethspaw and ignore
you until you become more engaged with the real world.
02.01.14 09:02 GMT
02.01.14 09:36 GMT
02.01.14 12:31 GMT
>Of course I am, I always like to keep up with modern training, they are the most common significant training aid in the uk, average annual sales were 75,000pa in 2010 when Duncan McNair last put figs out.<br />
Not in Wales they're not!
I guess we must be disadvantaged here, having to rely on good old fashioned respect and kindness with our dogs, so that they comply willingly instead of paying some [Person]
stupid amounts of money to cause our dogs unnecessary pain and suffering.
I would be rather heartbroken if my relationship with my dogs was so poor that I had to hurt them to ensure obedience (subservience?).
Maybe this harsh training method is only for those who are unable to gain the respect of man or beast?
02.01.14 09:46 GMT
It never ceases to amaze me how members are willing and prepared to be addressed in such a rude and condescending manner YET still prepared to engage with people such as Hethspaw.
Only on the Internet .......
> still prepared to engage with people such as Hethspaw.
I have this person on ignore - and oddly am never curious enough to read what he/she writes - but I must admit that the responses always make for fun reading which, I imagine, is the OP's objective.
02.01.14 10:14 GMT
What amazes me is that members are still allowed to promote e-collars on a forum that is primarily based on positive methods; I know it's a debate we've had with admin a few times but other forums are perfectly able to maintain a positive-methods-only principle BUT still talk about e-collars without promoting them, and I continue to fail to see why that can't be the case here.
Why be so deliberately provocative if you are really trying to change minds? Why misrepresent what is actually written in the Dunbar article if you have a real point to make? All it does is result in polarization, not informed debate. On those grounds alone you have to be dismissed as someone who is simply stirring the pot for your own amusement- a bit of post hangover mischief-making perhaps? Of course, many of us have as youngsters enjoyed the arts of the 6th form debating society, where one uses every rhetorical device under the sun to argue black is white.....but it also gets very dull and very predictable. Let's not have a rehash of the same debate of two years ago (was it?). I can't remember if you are Dennis or the acolyte but please, just give it a rest and go proselytize elsewhere.
Why not start your own pro e forum? If people want to thrash it out with you they can go there.
02.01.14 11:57 GMT
What a load of tosh, anyone who has to rely on pain to train any animal is a fool. Any breed will have some biddable dogs & also some non biddable. I've seen "protection"dogs trained by force methods & they frequently fail to protect-of course the dog s blamed & not the method.
As someone else has written why not start your own pro e collar & force forum & push your sadistic methods there.
I feel very sorry for any animal that comes within your reach :-(
Hi Hethspaw just into the new year but same old wind ups.
02.01.14 22:25 GMT
>I would be rather heartbroken if my relationship with my dogs was so poor that I had to hurt them to ensure obedience
04.01.14 10:11 GMT
Well I see that he is saying what I as an ex-trainer have been saying for some time. That concentrating on training by Classical Conditioning and Operant Conditioning produces 'robotic' 'automated' 'clinical' behaviours and ignores totally the rest of how a dog learns. Dogs are not just 2 principles of learning theory they have their own inner Drives, the method by which many people trained their dogs for years. Unfortunately, the myth and propaganda has been spouted in recent years that if you didn't train with a clicker and food, or food to lure reinforce and reward then you must be using 'punishment', prong collars, e collars, check chains and other harsh methods. That has always been rubbish as many many older trainers know. They used to use knowledge of the dog not scientific theories to train and although it may not have been as quick as click and treat it certainly covered a wider spectrum of understanding the animal in question. I personally have been slagged off on this forum and elsewhere for daring to criticise the over-use of food by those who only know the current 'food with everything' methods. I'm very glad to read what ID has said in this publication and it does not say just phase out food fast - if you read the last 2 paragraphs in particular it says a heck of a lot more.
By the way I will never condone the use of e collars (thought I'd get that in before anyone suggests I must) but having read of clinical trials done in controlled experiements neither will I condone the needless use of food. Food is an important vital resource and if you knew just what amount of pain and suffering a dog will endure to get food then you might understand what we're unwittingly doing to our dogs by using it 'modify unwanted behaviours'. It is possible to train dogs kindly with not a trace of food in sight.
01.03.14 16:32 GMT
I have trained many dogs over the years some happy to please breeds ( Labradors to field trial standard ), some "dominant" ie German Shepherds and just now a Doberman /Shepherd cross and have never used anything but positive reinforcement.
Patience and love are all it takes.
Im in wales and have never used even a choke chain.i find your remark offensive
09.10.14 00:15 GMT
I would rather have a wild and disobedient dog than to use an e collar.
Dog Trainer here!!
PLEASE PEOPLE I AM APPEALING YOU YOU ALL... PLEASE NEVER EVER USE A CRUEL/PAINFUL METHOD PLEASE
it is proven to further mess up the dog.. anyone who uses a cruel method... I challenge you to get in contact with another dog trainer (of similar persuasion) and instruct them to do to you as they would do to the dog...
I would just like to note that just about all dog training known to man, whatever methods employed, relies on use of cc and oc. The four quadrants of Operant Conditioning include both punishment and reward.
Reward may include food, toys, the opportunity to perform natural behaviours ( like barking on command) and, of course, functional reward- ie the opportunity for an excitable dog to get closer to a dog it likes, if it shows impulse control or, on the other hand, the opportunity for an OTT dog, scared of another dog, to get further away from the object of fear, if it demonstrates calm behaviour. Whatever the dog finds rewarding is by definition a reward, so reward training is by no means all and only about food. A good trainer figures out what the dog likes and then uses this to train. Likes can vary from context to context.
The job of the trainer is to identify and harness those rewards that are socially acceptable and then to manipulate delivery of them to elicit behaviours we want. Clearly what is rewarding to one dog may not be to another and, of course, a very stressed dog is unlikely to work for food treats unless stress levels are first brought down.
I agree there is still misunderstanding about how to use food rewards and trainers in the know should correct this, however let's not make the mistake of confusing bad training or limited and confused understanding of science, with bad science. The science is good and it is clear to those that study the science that reward does not = food treats. Treats are just one option. But some dogs would rather get praise and a pat, others a game....the list goes on.
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