Champdogs Information Exchange
10.02.12 15:48 GMT
23.02.12 12:04 GMT
I recently paid a deposit on a white miniature schnauzer, when I asked what day I could collect my puppy I was told I could not have him for another two weeks past the original date as he was ill and had to be taken to the vets that week , we were then told he's litter mate had died at 6 weeks old of an unknown illness of course alarm bells started ringing so after talking to my own vet we were advised not to take the sick puppy, we were then refused our deposit back and told we had to cover THEIR vets bill. So please be very careful if you intend paying deposits to strangers. Has anyone else lost deposits?
To be honest i didn't even know you have have a white Schnauzer.
10.02.12 16:09 GMT
did you get a reciept?
10.02.12 16:10 GMT
> please be very careful if you intend paying deposits to strangers.
Do you mean you did not meet the breeder?
There is good general advise about choosing a breeder and puppy to be found on the Kennel Club Website
which you should find helpful in avoiding ever finding yourself in this situation again.
10.02.12 16:49 GMT
If you have a receipt for the deposit then I would tell the breeder if it was not returned you will take further action and I would start with trading standards as they can't keep their side of the bargain and supply you with the pup you ordered they can keep the deposit. Even if you did not have a receipt but paid by check or credit card you still have proof and can push the matter however if you paid cash there is not much you can do but hope as you can not prove you left a deposit.
Don't let them give you any flannel they do not have a leg to stand on IMO as they can't supply the goods.
Next time meet the breeder a few times to make sure they are worthy of breeding your pup and best to find them either on this site or the Kennel Club or a breed club would not buy from someone who does not belong to at least one breed club.
Met the breeder and talked for ages but people show you a warm friendly helpful side when they want your money and change when challenged, the point of this post is what rights do we have when we get ripped off in this country ? It's about time people stood up to these crooks because at the end of the day they have stolen my money. I checked every thing out about this couple, their dogs were eye tested clear, kc registered clean can I just point out I am a kennel club accredited breeder of Miniature Schnauzers and we chose these dogs for fresh blood in our lines as most breeders know it can be very hard to get un related lines.This was also pointed out to the breeder that we would only take the puppy if he passed all the health screening requirements and they agreed.
Yes white Schnauzers are accepted by the KC in England.
10.02.12 16:51 GMT
We posted at the same time report them to the KC now, they should help you sort it out and if they don't I can't see the point in registering people accredited the very least they should do is strike them off.
10.02.12 17:04 GMT
> I can't see the point in registering people accredited the very least they should do is strike them off
The way I am reading it it is the OP that is Accredited, or rather Assured :)
10.02.12 17:06 GMT
> I checked every thing out about this couple, their dogs were eye tested clear, kc registered clean
I take it they are not Assured Breeders themselves. How were you put in touch with them? Were they recommended by someone?
To be honest I'd run a mile from a breeder who demanded a deposit -and I'd never take one myself. One subject that has been discussed here many a time.
10.02.12 18:32 GMT
10.02.12 18:35 GMT
The way I am reading it it is the OP that is Accredited,
Yes, you are correct I misread or rather did not read it carefully enough. sorry.
Bearing this new intelligence in mind I am surprised that the OP has been caught they must have a fair amount of knowledge of the breed and its breeders, however as the breeder of the puppy can't supply that puppy then they are obliged to return the deposit I really can't see what the problem is unless you can't prove that you paid it. It is within reason to expect that the breeder would supply you with a fit and health pup at the appointed time and suitable for the purpose you had discussed with them, be that pet, showing or breeding, if the breeder can't do this then the deposit is returned.
Mind you we don't know what the problem is, it may not be anything to worry about but you would need to speak to their vet to know what was wrong, perhaps the next step.
As I stated I needed new blood and white mini's are usually from the same imported stock they have not been in the uk as long as the other colours and in all honesty these puppies were much better quality than many assured breeders puppies I looked at. Paying a deposit is standard practice so I don't think I done anything fool hardy, I paid the deposit by bank transfer so have proof when and who it was paid to, the breeder just ignores all call's and texts as for me been responsible for their puppies vet's fees this is nuts who has ever heard anyone say that? If I had not reserved him would they have let him suffer or die ? sorry I said accredited breeder my mistake the kennel club changed the name to assured recently ! would any of you have taken a very expensive puppy from a litter who was ill and had recent deaths?? I doubt it! I will be contacting trading standards, and or small claims court I worked hard for this money and paid tax on it, so maybe the tax man would also be interested in this couples side line.
Sorry should have said, they will not give me their vets information as this is the first thing I would have done.... sounds suss eh!!
at least as you have proof I imagine you have a legal right to the money back, it's just a shame that you should have to go to a lot of inconvenience and hassle to recover it. I'm curious, is the money they want off you for the treatment for this mystery illness or perhaps the tests you mentioned? did you ask for any health tests on the puppy that wouldn't normally be done? Just wondered if they've been to extra expense maybe that's why they don't want to return the deposit. (not that I think it's right even if that is their reason!)
Defintely a case for trading standards and also a complaint to any breed club they are members of.
I am a breeder who does take deposits (not large) and make it clear that these are non refundable unless for any reason I cannot uphold my end of the bargain, and supply a puppy.
This would include death or illness of the pup, basically anything making it unfit for sale. I certainly would not think it acceptable to hold soemone to having a puppy that was showing signs of illness.
Years ago I held a puppy for someone as they were going on holiday. The agreement had been that the pup would be paid for in full at 8 weeks, and become their property, as they were not collecting for more than another month.
Unfortuantely while playing the pup sustained a green stick fracture of a foreleg (trapped a leg) at 10 - 12 weeks (the ownership had not changed hands as they had not paid yet).
I had a very expensive time, and after the Vet confimed the pups was perfectly fit and healthy, the potential new owners still had me trotting her up and down before deciding if they would have her, which they did and she is a healthy 12 year old.
Now in similar situations when the owner chooses not to collect their puppy when ready I expect to transfer ownership to new owners while I board it, so that it is insured and in their ownership.
The vets fees were not for eye testing or the normal vet check for murmurs, hurnias etc as these were included in the original price, they want me to pay for the mystery illness. As for the deposit as a breeder myself I used to take small deposits just to avoid timewasters, recently we had a puppy with a an over shot jaw we offered the purchaser a refund instantly, we now have a large waiting list for our puppies so we don't need to take deposits we just make the pups available from 8-10 weeks after vet checks and first jabs this way seems to make life much less stressful for everyone. Does any one know where the law stands on returning deposits??
OMG just found out my white puppy is dead , they finally answered my texts and he still wont pay my money back!
If they aren't supplying the 'goods' they can't keep the deposit.
God you have missed a train wreck there! Just imagine if you had have taken this pup home. Sounds like parvo or distemper to me. How much did you pay deposit? I ask for deposits to shake time wasters but only ask for 200
Just to add poor puppies and even if they are not giving you your money back I feel for them having lost some babies. Maybe they needed your cash as the vets bills were steep to try and save them. Let the dust settle and discuss again in a non threatening way. Just say I understand what's happened but legally you cannot keep my money and if you don't please give me my money this is the route I shall take. Your a breeder yourself and you could from a friend who tells another friend who has a natter as a show so its in there best interests to.
10.02.12 22:22 GMT
I am sorry about the puppy but no way can they hold onto your deposit now they can't supply a puppy. Contact trading standards and let them deal with it, only hope they are declaring the pups on the tax returns because once you start messing with people it seems to stir up all sorts of problems. On the other hand you could take the matter to a small claims court or perhaps threaten to, that may be enough.
>I ask for deposits to shake time wasters but only ask for 200
That's not 'only'!
Well it's 4 times my 'only' of £50 :)
If they can't supply you with the puppy you'd paid a deposit for, then they have to give you your money back. That's the law.
> OMG just found out my white puppy is dead , they finally answered my texts and he still wont pay my money back!
Now, am I being far too cynical.... but is there proof of the puppy's death? It could be happy healthy and sold elsewhere, and someone is trying to defraud...
...regardess of that, they have not been able to supply 'goods ordered subject to contract' [as distasteful as that sounds] and as you are in no way responsible for the puppy's illness or death then they should reimburse. Cynical side again, but the fact they asked you for vet bill money [ermm....like, what???!!!
] is an indicator that they are penny-pinching to say the least, and not the most trustworthy when it comes to money.
I would just tell them that you will be taking them to small claims court and are reporting them to trading standards if your deposit is not returned IMMEDIATELY!
After you get your deposit back still report them to trading standards, charlatans! No excuse for this behaviour, personally I don't believe a word they have said.
Well its definitely not only to me shouldn't have said it in such a way. Dogues are expensive and i ensure they go to good homes. £50 is nothing to some of the people that roll up to view, I've been shocked at the porches, mercs, and range rovers they drive. I suppose its more part payment as they don't put any money down if they are not taking a puppy home, if they come so far as viewing then I must like them enough to allow them to have a pup. My deposits are not non refundable either if people really do change their minds.
Had a fella recently call me about a litter I was vetting for a friend, on for a hour or so answering all his q's then he said he's seen a cheaper litter elsewhere but they couldn't answer his q's thanks for the advice bye! Also people having to part with a reasonable amount would hopefully really make them think about a puppy. If I say on first contact its 200 for deposit at viewing. But endorsements is the really scary word!
I've told them I would be reporting them and the answer I was given was......I don't reply to people who threaten me with court action so now your not getting your deposit back!
How do you reason with ignorant people like that? in my opinion they are having financial problems, most people have a plan and money put to one side for unforseen problems, I will name and shame if I don't get my money back.ps I also said I would take it in instalments if they were struggling.
11.02.12 12:02 GMT
How were you introduced to them? Are they breed club members? Is there someone who could negotiate for you?
11.02.12 12:21 GMT
>on for a hour or so answering all his q's then he said he's seen a cheaper litter elsewhere but they couldn't answer his q's thanks for the advice bye!
Makes me want to spit when they take up so much of my time, and then I realise I'm being used. Especially when I have been so helpful, and given them the benefit of my expertise. Although it's not nice being used by timewasters, I think afterwards that I probably wouldn't have wanted them to have one of my pups Louise. :-)
11.02.12 12:31 GMT
Breeders should be freely giving any information they are asked for regardless if someone is planning to buy a puppy from you or not.
Clearly some moments are not the best but I would always be available for someone to call back at a better time.
Is that so very different to what we do on the forum?
have you sent a registered letter to them so they sign for it, and explain that you wish your deposit to be returned to you as you have not recieved the puppy, then you have got some form of evidence to say that you have asked for the deposit back, then contact CAB and see what they say also can you stop a bankers draft from being cashed ? or contact the bank and explain that what has happened and you think they are fraudsters never used one so not sure , have you contacted the kennel club to see what they say , what they are doing is wrong and they know it and i would feel like you naming and shaming them as well good luck and hope you get your money back
I don't reply to people who threaten me with court action so now your not getting your deposit back!
Have these people got their heads screwed on backwards? So have they had court actions threatened previously then? As they state 'people' who................... (it wouldn't surprise me)
I don't know how much the deposit was, so you will have to weigh up your actions as to cost and recompense the next step for me as well as trading standards would now be a solicitors letter, moving on to small claims court if that still did not budge them.
If you can talk to a solicitor over the phone to ask about cost etc, there are also dog law solicitors, the CAB unfortunately in many towns have long waiting lists, (months) but also worth a try, but trading standards a must.
Save all e-mails and communications, and get copies of the bank transfer, what a mess some people cause.......... but fight this, they can't get away with it.
You have entered into a contract with them, if you pull out they can keep the deposit, but if you pull out due to 'faulty goods' that was fine as the pup was sick, and obviously if the pup was dead **cough, cough** you are legally entitled to your refund back, just as if the seller breaks the contract and no longer wishes to sell to you, you are legally entitled to your money back. This is why you need trading standards. :-)
I met a couple with white schnauzer pups last year, when I was at the eye specialist in Yorkshire with one of mine for HC test. The couple had a litter of all white pups in two cages. I did not know what they were till I asked, at first I thought they were leggy westies.
I was there early for an appointment, so sort of struck up a conversation with this couple in the waiting room. They were there to have the whole litter screened apparently. They seemed quite a nice couple at first, but then the Vet told them that they would have to take the pups to their own vet for vaccinations, and the man changed completely, he flew into a rage and went balistic at the vet, as he said one of the pups was going to its new home that day and he would not be able to get it done at his own vet on time.
The Vet was very nice and explained, that as they were not a client of his he could do the eye screening, but not any other treatment as other vets in the area would complain.
After reading all of the above, and this incident stuck in my mind as I could not believe how this mans whole personality seemed to change in an instant. I just wondered if it could be the same people, as it is not that far away from where was stated the breeder was, and they said that they did not show, but the pups were KC registered, but they were breeding the white ones as they were very popular for the pet market. I am afraid I just sort of sat there and bit my lip.
I hope you get your deposit back, I think you can take out a claim through the small claims court online, never done it myself but I have seen it mentioned in the local paper.
11.02.12 19:24 GMT
21.02.12 15:07 GMT
Thanks for all your support . I have now purchased a pepper & salt miniature schnauzer puppy from a very well known show breeder who I trust as my other dogs were purchased from her and we are over the moon with the puppy.We have decided to stay away from the whites and stick with our p&s.
Just been text by the breeder who said they will give me only half my deposit back as I backed out of the sale before the puppy died . I BACKED OUT WHEN THE PUPPY WAS SERIOUSLY ILL DID'NT KNOW I HAD TO WAIT UNTIL IT WAS DEAD!!!
11.02.12 21:15 GMT
Keep at it they are loosing their nerve. Seems like the brain has already left what a daft statement and plays into your hands, and they thought you should still buy !!!
> said they will give me only half my deposit back as I backed out of the sale before the puppy died
Excuse me you gave a deposit for 'Goods of Merchantable quality' which a sick puppy is not. Even if the pup were still alive they would be in the wrong.
I don't mind nattering about dogs I could do so til the cows came home. There was no real benefit for me as it was not my litter, I'm just happy knowing they have gone to good homes. I've had to take out a new contract on my phone for I was running up quite a bill. Just though it.was abit cheeky, if he buys a pup of lesser quality to save pennies then on his head be it if he has no comeback from his breeder who likely had short cuts in raising the litter he will regret buying, they were cheaper as he still had some left well after 8 weeks, whereas the ones I knew of were all spoken for by 6 weeks old.
Education is always the key and even if he phones me down the line ill advise him none the less, but ill add my pennys worth saying I bet you wish you'd bought better! At the end of the day the breed and dogs themselves are more important than my pocket and ego.
There is currently an all white litter for sale in West Yorkshire on an infamous puppy selling site. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not!
> There is currently an all white litter for sale in West Yorkshire on an infamous puppy selling site. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not!
Oooh very interesting.... maybe someone could enquire about them....?
Are whites accepted in the KC standard, I know they are shown separately as are the other colours in FCI countries.
If they are not accepted in the UK show ring then I am rather surprised at the premium price they seem to carry, and would ask why?
>Are whites accepted in the KC standard
Yes: acceptable registration colours are:
Black & Silver
Colour Not Recognised By Kc
Pepper & Salt
(All pepper and salt colours in even proportions, or pure black, or white, or black and silver.)
> Colour Not Recognised By Kc
> Pepper & Salt
So neither pepper and Salt or White are acceptable in the showring.
Very stange as pepper and Salt is the main colour for Standards???
11.02.12 22:30 GMT
11.02.12 22:32 GMT
No, you've misunderstood. The list is the 5 choices for registration, not two separate lists of two options, with the last two not being recognised colours.
My part in parentheses is taken from the breed standard; white is perfectly acceptable in the showring.
Oh right, I read it as the first two were acceptable, the other two not ;) will have to look out for oen at a show.
No Brainless, the colours that can be registered are just listed in alphabetical order -and "Colour not recognised by KC" starts with a C so come before pepper & salt and white. :)
12.02.12 08:13 GMT
Yes have seen a few about but must say I like the P & S myself - very glad that we only have shades of grey to worry about have recently been trying to come to terms with the colour permitted in the Beagle, what a nightmare if you have to name. them.
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