Champdogs Information Exchange
05.02.12 23:07 GMT
My first post and I'm asking for any help or advice.
We have a litter of gundog pups, two weeks old yesterday. They have all been feeding well and very active. Tonight one is very quiet, won't feed, keeps crying and is restless. Earlier she was trembling but that now seems to have stopped. Temperature is normal.
She fed well at around 6.30 so this has come on in the last few hours.
I've spoken to our vet who thinks it's colic and said to give a few drops of brandy and tepid water, which we have but doesn't seem to have helped so far.
If anyone can offer any advice I'd be very grateful.
05.02.12 23:18 GMT
I have never tried booze, so can't comment on that one, but I have used human baby colic meds.
I have used Woodwards gripe water to good effect, and in cases of constipation used a little liquid paraffin.
Have you checked to see if pup needs toileting?
05.02.12 23:39 GMT
Thanks for replies.
Yes have checked for toileting. She passed a small amount of stools earlier.
Do you know if colic would make a puppy lethargic?
Infacol may help with colic... it can certainly bring a rabbit out of the first signs of bloat. It contains simethicone (if I remember rightly).
Have the pups been wormed? If not then a worm load can make then uncomfortable,bloated and lethargic so I would get them done now.
Colic is painful and may make the pup reluctant to move about.
Lactulose is good for dogs/pups with constipation,it is mild unlike some laxatives,the last thing you want is to cause more pain,you can buy it cheaper over the counter at the chemist but don't tell them it is for a dog, some chains like Boots do their own version.
I hope she gets better soon
06.02.12 00:58 GMT
Thanks for that.
Just tried her on to feed again but not interested. Tried formula too but won't take it. She's so slow and lethargic. After looking on the internet I'm now panicking about fading pups.
I just don't know what to do. Makes it worse that it's the middle of the night.
We're putting the pups on to mum to feed as she didn't take to them at first and bit one at 3 days old. We lost him on Friday after 10 days of tube feeding. Also lost two during the birth........ it's been heartbreaking.
The remaining 6 had been doing brilliantly but now this.
Just going to tube feed her and then try vets again.
06.02.12 01:02 GMT
Sorry Rhodach didn't see your reply.
They are due to be wormed tomorrow.
I did give her some lactulose earlier in case of constipation.
Recently a client rushed a very 'flat' 2-week pup to us, barely alive. It turned out to have puppy strangles, so that would be worth mentioning to your vet (they don't see it often). Treatment with high doses of steroids saved it, and it's now a healthy 4 month old, albeit rather scarred.
Doesn't sound like colic hun to me either, pup would be crying and a gentle tummy rub and lying on my neck for tlc always does the trick for me, never given brandy for colic all that would do is knock it senseless IMO and calm it, certainly make a pup lethargic and sleepy too, has the pup become lethargic more so since the brandy? It may recover once it is out of it's system.
Without proper diagnoses it is difficult to say what to do, toileting, worming as suggested may help, but lethargy is always a bad sign.
I would take the pup to the vet for a proper look over, wising the poor little mite all the very best.
>I have never tried booze, so can't comment on that one, but I have used human baby colic meds.
Gripe water was originally 3.6% alcohol. ;-) My midwife recommended a little whisky for colic, so I can see why the vet advised alcohol too.
06.02.12 11:06 GMT
try giving glucose and water
If it is fading puppy have a search on this forum and on Google. I've seen a treatment which was to perfuse subcutaneously - but I can't remember what with. For the people who were posting the treatment seemed to work like a miracle.
OK - found one of the links: http://kilbournedeerhounds.com/FADING%20PUPPIES.htm
I hope your pup is OK.
06.02.12 13:08 GMT
Well, have had pup at vets. Our vet doesn't think it's fading puppy. He thinks the bloating is gas and he's wondering if mum could possibly be producing sour milk out of a teat or two. He wants us to start weaning today and also worm. She's had anti inflammatory and antibiotic, buscopan and infacol.
The other five are going mad for their mince but she's not interested at all. She has to be tube fed every hour. There's no improvement yet, she just wants to sleep. Can't believe she's like this now after being so lively only yesterday.
Just going to have a look at the link, I'm still not convinced it's not fading puppy.
06.02.12 14:03 GMT
could she have been stood on
Sounds like your vet is just guessing to me, surely other pups would be affected also if there was sour milk? What a shame to have to wean the whole litter at 2 weeks, especially sad if the milk is fine. I guess the vet is playing safe incase there is a problem and it spreads to the others.
Did you ask when you can worm this little one now after all the medication? I would certainly worm the others it is time.
The pup is obviously in some discomfort and bloated not to wish to eat, the vet did not think there was any sort of blockage at all just gas? Did he suggest massaging the tummy?
Really hope that she pulls through.
To be honest if there was anything wrong with the milk then Mum would be put on safe AB's and pups left on Mum.
I thought 'sour milk' was an old wives tale, sdounds msot unlikely unless there is excessive ehat in particular glands indicating the start fo mastitis. My girl had acute mastitis at 10 days and pups were kept on Mum. They avoided the infected gland themsleves.
Pups can get windy because of poor feeding technique/gulping which is basically what we were suggesting re colic and gripe water etc for that.
Unless the vet is an experienced breeder I would not be taking pups off Mum, your making a lot more work for yourself, Mums milk is always going to be better,a nd you could end up with a bitch severely ill with mastitis.
06.02.12 16:58 GMT
Thanks so much for everyones genuine concern. It does help to know people on this forum care and want to help.
I've taken mum back and asked for her to go on antibiotics as I agree that does seem the right approach if there's any possibility milk could be the problem. She's now on noroclav.
I'm not taking the other pups off mum but am starting them on mince as well. The poorly girl has to go on formula as she won't suckle. She did poo earlier and afterwards was the most active she'd been and was trying to move around, albeit slowly. Now back to just sleeping again though. Also she's now sounding snuffly and has a little green discharge from her nose.
She can't have been stood on as we are by the whelping box 24/7. Luckily I'm not on my own, I have a wonderful husband who is doing more than his fair share of taking care of them.
Tiredness and worry is taking it's toll I think, I'm reading and thinking so much that everythings just starting to muddle. Sorry if this is rambling.
Mum had her first litter two years ago without a problem, this time it's been so different right from the birth
which was long and difficult. Although this is only my second litter, I've worked for a show kennels for over 10 years so have looked after many litters and we've never known anything like this. I thought I'd done everything right, owned the breed for 20 years before getting a bitch from good lines that did well enough to be suitable to breed. Found the most suitable stud dog, both have had all health tests. I've worked with dogs all these years but nothing has prepared me for this. Not just the tiredness but the worry, in my mind I keep thinking I'm going to lose them all. The pup that died on Friday we thought died from the injury but now I'm wondering could it be the same as although the signs were different he also had green discharge. If I'd had any idea I would have had tests done on him after he died.
Cookie, has the vet checked for distemper, don't like the sound of your latest update at all.
06.02.12 18:15 GMT
Green snot from the nose would indicate an infection, possibly from inhalation of milk whilst feeding (or is she has been trod on, some milk being forced from the stomach upwards and inhaled) or indeed inhalation of birth fluids (can take a while for that to show). Antibiotics should sort that out if caught in time.
Did the vet listen to her chest? The infection could be in the chest (lungs) or upper airways.
If she's got an infection then she'll feel rotten and not feel like feeding, additionally if she's bunged up (snotty nose) she will find it difficult to coordinate feeding/breathing. Hopefully supportive care and the antibiotics will get her over this.
Now Mum is on AB's they will get through to the pups too so if they are brewing any nasty bugs that should help.
Fingers crossed for you. Let us know how she goes on and try to take care of yourself, I know it's hard not to worry especially when you are exhausted but just keep on looking after them all and try to take one day at a time.
06.02.12 19:00 GMT
Hi Carrington, no, distemper hasn't been mentioned. Not something I'd thought of, my two bitches are vaccinated regularly and the pups are in the bedroom and not in contact with other dogs so do you think it would be likely?
Chris, thanks for your advice. Yes the vet did listen to her chest and it was clear and her heart was strong. I was worried a heart problem could cause fluid build up but he didn't think the bloating was fluid but gas. He did give her a very thorough exam this morning. The green snot has only started this afternoon, some food did come back earlier so could be that possibly.
Like you say it is so hard not to worry, especially in the middle of the night when allsorts go through your mind.
06.02.12 19:51 GMT
Try to stay positive (difficult I know!). If the baby girl has had some difficulty feeding/breathing simultaneously then it's quite probable she's taken air into her tummy and has trapped "wind".
We've had a couple of pups over the years with colic and each time they have looked like they were going to pass away PDQ. Really sorry state they have been in (very flat, limp, lethargic and refusing to feed - no surprise there!) but Infacol, a warm hot water bottle and lots of gentle tummy massage have "dissolved" the wind and they've recovered. Took a good few hours though of them looking as if they were going to breathe their last breath before they recovered.
If the chest was clear then it's likely that there is an infection of the upper airways so that in itself is better news as it's not normally too much of an issue - all things considered. The antibiotics should sort that out and as long as she's getting some nourishment/fluids from the tube feeding she should "mend" herself with the antibiotics and time.
I expect most of us (well I know I have) have worried in the darkest hours of night about our precious babies. Worry, tiredness and night time are not a combination that is favourable!
Keep going with the tube feeding (if needed, at her age she'll soon be biting at the tube and making it hard for you), the antibiotics, keep her warm, massage her tummy and give a drop of Infacol and wait it out. These little souls take ill quickly but on the brighter side they normally perk up quickly too.
06.02.12 21:50 GMT
>Gripe water was originally 3.6% alcohol
You can tell I haven't had kids can't you! :-)
and it worked better when it did LOL.
I used to love gripe water as a child, with no idea it had alcohol. Used to pretend to have hiccups or steal it from the cupboard! :-D
Hope the little one is doing better today.
07.02.12 22:34 GMT
Overnight the little girls breathing got very bad so back to the vets again this morning to ask for an xray. The xray shows that she's been crushed and has only got less than 50% of her normal lung capacity and a broken rib. There's haemorraging and bruising in her lungs. She's had a tiny dose of steroid and is now on corvental d and antibiotics.
The good thing is there's no infection so the other pups aren't at risk. She really is a little fighter and we need to give her every chance to see if she can get through this. She does seem stronger today and is fighting the tube feeding, even gave a little bark earlier. Just need her breathing to ease.
> The xray shows that she's been crushed and has only got less than 50% of her normal lung capacity and a broken rib.
Oh I am so sorry to hear that.... :(
As a non-breeder, I have always wondered about the risks, and now I understand a lot more!
It hadn't occurred to me a squashed pup could mimic signs of more serious illness, resulting in the whole litter and/or mum needing treatment. I have my fingers tightly crossed for the little one, I really hope she does well xx.
By Kate H
07.02.12 23:46 GMT
Will keep all fingers and paws crossed for your little one
> It hadn't occurred to me a squashed pup could mimic signs of more serious illness,
Having organs or bones damaged due to crushing by the dam is a very serious thing and the cause of many puppy deaths. This is why good breeders stay with the bitch and pups to try and avoid this.
According to the Book of the bitch up to I think it said a third of a litter would be expected to die without human intervention, due to crushing chilling, or being pushed out and not getting as much food as litter mates, and of course some congenital abnormality etc.
08.02.12 00:48 GMT
I really don't know how it's happened. Mum and pups are never alone, either my husband or myself have been with the pups day and night since they were born, if we have to leave the room for any reason we always take mum with us. When mum's feeding them we're always moving any that try to crawl underneath as we've always been very aware of pups getting squashed. When she's getting in and out the whelping box we always make her wait and move the pups to stop her treading on any. The only other thing the vet could think was maybe the pups themselves if they've all piled up and she was at the bottom of the pile. The boys are all a lot bigger than her, around 2kg so I suppose combined it would be quite a weight on her but it doesn't seem very likely to me.
It can happen in seconds, so you can't beat yoruself up.
08.02.12 08:21 GMT
sorry to hear this but unfortunatly i know what your going through i lost one of mine by being stood on thought he was okay but went downhill after 4 days so got him pts as you could see him starting to lose condition compared to his littermates
So very pleased that you now know what it is, I have my fingers and toes crossed for the little one that with will power and your care the wee mite will pull through. :-)
In my last litter I lost a pup to FPS and she really bloated up just before she passed away.
I'm glad you now know the cause of the little pup's discomfort and hope she pulls through.
08.02.12 14:29 GMT
Very sad to say we lost her this morning. She got worse in the early hours so we got her to the vets and she was put on oxygen but died later on in the morning. We are having a post mortem done just to be sure there was nothing else going on.
Really appreciate everyones help and kind thoughts.
08.02.12 14:32 GMT
That is very sad :-( run free little one
08.02.12 15:26 GMT
What a shame, so sorry you lost her. Hope all goes well with the others.
08.02.12 21:08 GMT
sorry you lost her
Just read your posts,so sorry for your loss.x
08.02.12 22:46 GMT
So sorry for your loss, be strong for the others that you have xxx
Oh no! What a shame.... but you did everything you could for her, and more... Rest in peace little one and rest easy in your conscience Cookie :)
How heartbreaking, I'm so sorry to hear that. Run free little baby. :-(
Really sorry to read this.
So sorry,how very sad.
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