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Up Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / panacur and pregnant bitch??
- By chell1981 [gb] Date 06.05.11 19:30 GMT
am sure i have read that you should give panacur to a pregnant bitch at 40 weeks, can anyone just confirm this is right? this is our first litter so want to make sure we do everything correctly :)

- By Trialist Date 06.05.11 19:34 GMT
Panacur should be given from Day 40 (not weeks :-) ) of pregnancy through to 2 days post whelp!
- By chell1981 [gb] Date 06.05.11 19:38 GMT
sorry i meant weeks.... am in 'human' pregnancy mode lol

- By chell1981 [gb] Date 07.05.11 10:27 GMT
i've read the leaflet that comes with the panacur but i'm not seeing anything about a pregnant bitch, i know i'm meant to give it at 40 days but how much and for how long i cant find it :S
- By Pedlee Date 07.05.11 11:34 GMT
It's on the side of the box - Panacur 10% liquid, 0.5ml per 2kg bodyweight, from day 40 until 2 days post whelping. So for a 20 kg dog the daily dose is 5ml. HTH
- By PennyGC [gb] Date 10.05.11 13:49 GMT
You may have seen comments on another thread about worming - some people have used panacur in pregnancy and for pups without problem but some people have followed instructions completely and have lost litters, had developmental problem (eyes particularly) after using panacur.  Advice from people who've lost and had damaged pups is to only use Drontal, to use it on the bitch on day 53 and to use it on pups after their eyes have opened.  The advice is that panacur is great for adults, but not for youngsters.  The other advice is not to worm and vaccinate at the same time - do it alternately.  Yes, many people have used panacur for years without problems, but others haven't.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 10.05.11 14:09 GMT

> to use it on the bitch on day 53

What is the point of this.  I have read the notes on the ingredients and it does not state that it has efficacy on encysted larva or larval stages as far as I can work out, so why dose in pregnancy at all, worm the bitch before mating and then after the birth.
- By PennyGC [gb] Date 10.05.11 15:57 GMT
Er the point of it is to kill the encysted worms... it may not say on the packaging but as I've said before it does kill them so the point is use it and don't use panacur which has a history of problems.  Apparently there used to be a website where everyone who lost litters posted, but it's not on line anymore. The point is to advise people of issues.  The point is that they can then make up their minds which wormer to use. Personally I'd not touch panacur with a bargepole for pregnant bitches or youngsters.  You can use it and I hope that you don't have any problems.  I'm not going to risk it. 
- By Brainless [gb] Date 10.05.11 16:43 GMT
You've misunderstood I was asking what the point is of worming the bitch in pregnancy with a wormer that does not kill encysted larva and prevent it's transference to the puppies, (I have read all the data I could find by Bayer and none of it indicates being effective against larval stages, which other wormers clearly do when they have this effect). 

I was  not questioning the choice of wormer for either adult or pups, just the use of it in pregnancy when under contraindications on the info sheet it says in red:

Use During Pregnancy and Lactation
This product is contra-indicated for pregnant and lactating bitches.

Panacur in pregnancy is used for the purpose of reducing the transference of worms to the unborn puppies, it is personal choice whether you wish to use it.
- By chell1981 [gb] Date 11.05.11 07:12 GMT
Certainly confusing for a person new to breeding...... I chose panacur as it says it's safe to use in pregnant bitches,  I do think giving it to them every day from day 40 is a bit extreme!

I have researched into drontal after reading this and have to say everywhere states it should not be used on pregnant bitches, I know as you said many people have used drontal with no problems but surely giving a medication which is stated as not suitable is far worse than giving one that has been tested and deemed safe in pregnant bitches?
- By Brainless [gb] Date 11.05.11 07:18 GMT

> I do think giving it to them every day from day 40 is a bit extreme!

That is the only way to kill off the reactivating larva, as this is the stage at which it gets passed to the puppies, which is why it is given every day.  I expect the encysted larva are designed nto to all reactivate at once. 

Toxacara Canis reproduction is directly linked to canine reproductive hormones, which is why it is most commonly found in pregnancy and lactating bitches and puppies under 6 months and why concentration worming to these life stages is so important.
- By chell1981 [gb] Date 11.05.11 07:28 GMT
So does one use panacur knowing others have had problems or use drontal which is stated as not safe in pregnancy?

I don't have a problem buying more wormer if panacur is well known to cause problems,  I wouldn't want to do anything that could harm any unborn puppies, I think that if panacur did cause problems they wouldn't be able to advertise it as safe during pregnancy?
But as I say I'm new to breeding and although I think I have read every dog breeding book going Inc book of the bitch and Hilary harmars one, aswell as a few others, hearing from experienced breeders also helps but can sometimes be confusing as each person has their own way of doing things if you get what I mean.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 11.05.11 07:35 GMT
Well my positive expereince is with 18 litters and 6 generations, and only problem was a couple of squitty pups after the 5 week worming, in one litter.

Have never used the puppy Drontal for puppies, and would never use something not specifically tested suitable for pregnancy in pregnancy.
- By PennyGC [gb] Date 11.05.11 15:22 GMT
Yes, I agree with you chell1981.  Just to clarify that the person who advised about drontal had spoken directly with them and got their advice and has followed it and not had any issues.  It's a tough thing I guess with  Panacur because they'll continue to advise it's use on pregnant bitches and young pups until there are significant numbers of lost litters etc - however I've heard of three and that's enough for me not to use it other than with adults.  Everyone will have heard different things and it's tough to make decisions.  I had a pup with an underdeveloped optic nerve when I was using Panacur and that's when I heard of the problems to start with - seemingly of course vets won't make such links in case they get sued.  I still beat myself up even though I know that the pup is living a wonderful life and has sight - but I still blame myself.  I couldn't see these threads without making a comment and letting people know experiences of worming.  For me I stay clear of Panacur.
- By chell1981 [gb] Date 11.05.11 18:27 GMT
penny is it drontal that you now use?

i just want whats best for mom and puppies, don't want to rick causing any harm to them that could have been prevented.

Those that do use drontal or another brand (not panacur), is it still the same, a dose everyday from 40 weeks?

and i'm assuming that i could use panacur on the puppies once born? just not on the pregnant bitch? or does it cause problems after birth aswell?

Chell x
- By Boody Date 11.05.11 22:23 GMT
Sorry penny if I've missed something but do you have concrete proof of this or is it just relayed info???
- By JeanSW Date 11.05.11 22:32 GMT

> I chose panacur as it says it's safe to use in pregnant bitches,

Yup!  :-)  :-)
Which is why I've used it for years and years - all with positive results.  :-)
If it ain't broke - don't fix it.
- By PennyGC [gb] Date 12.05.11 00:08 GMT
Sorry penny if I've missed something but do you have concrete proof of this or is it just relayed info???

Sorry, Boody I'm not sure what sort of 'concrete proof' you're after.  If it's that I know people this has happened to, that people have spoken with eye specialists, that it's true then I have 'concrete proof'.  If you want something signed or a scientific paper then no. 

I have had a pup with undeveloped optic nerves having wormed as instructions at 2 weeks - eye specialist hadn't heard of this in my breed and photos were taken at 7 weeks and again at 12 months.  He didn't say that it was the wormer, but he had no explanation for it.

Other breeders whom I know have had problems with Panacur, apparently there used to be a web page where people swapped issues but it's no longer operational. Whilst the people on the forum are border collie people (and one breeder lost 3 litters after using Panacur) it has happened (this is third hand as I don't know them) to other breeds as well.

Additionally herding breeds, unless tested, should avoid where possible Milbemax wormer, and should stop their dogs eating horse poo after they've been wormed as the ingredient ivermectin can seriously harm them.  This is also in Immodium so don't give herding breeds this for poorly tums.

You wont get a vet saying this - although some have apparently indicated that Panacur can cause problems - because obviously the makers of Panacur don't want to advertise the problems.  Rest assured I believe the people who've lost litters and had damaged pups (I've had one myself), they are reputable people who follow instructions and weigh individual pups.  Strong advice to worm only with Drontal until pups have grown up.

Now you must all do as you see fit with your dogs, you must make up your minds over this.  I'm not risking my pups, I worm now always with Drontal.

Up Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / panacur and pregnant bitch??

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