Not logged inChampdogs Information Exchange
Forum Breeders Help Search Board Index Active Topics Login
Up Topic Dog Boards / Controversial Stuff / The KC has no "fit for breeding" test for all working breeds
- Date 09.04.11 08:01 GMT
[deleted]
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 08:01 GMT Edited 09.04.11 10:18 GMT
The KC is the only breed registration club in the whole of Europe not to have a mandatory fit for breeding test for all working breeds, the consequences, unknown in europe, the self explanatory consequences are outlined below & need no further comment from me.

RSPCA Open Letter To KC 2011 daming KC for the hideous health problems its breeding policy is causing.
http://www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/letter/0311

Below, Euro comparative example to KC breeding & health maintenance standards
Dobermann fit for breeding licensing test 2001 (ZTP). The 3rd column in shows the hip scores & passes of every Dobermann entered for the test in 2001, for a fee, anyone can select any dog from that list and obtain the hip scores of every single ancestor going back to 1976. The test as a whole goes on over a weekend, everything is examined, not least, the conformations, in Europe Dobermanns are allowed a maximum of 2cm out of conformation, the measures are carried out with slide rules although I heard they were turning to digital these days.

Note: The breed club rules make it mandatory that every Dobermann in Germany & all other Euro countries do this test before a fit for breeding licence is issued if the dog passes the test.

Dobermann ZTP 2001
http://www.dobermann.com/ztp/ztp_2001.htm
.
- By mastifflover Date 09.04.11 11:30 GMT

> Dobermann fit for breeding licensing test 2001 (ZTP)


ZTP is a TEMPERMENT test for protection work (of which 'foriegn' dogs need to be KC registered)
The FFB (fit for breeding) test also contain a section on protection work.

Dogs need the relevent health tests to compete, but do you really think that just becasue Mastiffs, Rotties and the rest of the working group show thier courage and ability to attack strangers would make dogs like the Neo less wrikly or cavaliers less prone to SM ????

Oh my gosh, I am astounded!!!!

I am very PLEASED that the KC does not insist on the ZTP. I want my Mastiff to be friendly with strangers and take his lead from ME, I do NOT want him to think he can attack anybody he percieves to be a threat :eek: A dog will fail the test is it does NOT atttack...........It has nothing to do with health and is all about being 'macho' - we have enough macho idiots in our country, training thier dogs as weapon dogs - we do NOT want this to be the only reason our working group dogs are bred.
The test is about protection & courage NOT thier health.

> the consequences, unknown in europe, the self explanatory consequences are outlined below & need no further comment from me.


I have no idea how your mind works......I can see no relevance to couragous, protection dogs and the health problems the RSPCA are talking about!
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 12:30 GMT
When I wrote the first post basics I never expected anyone would post illustrating how very far behind the UK is in understanding these things & worse still passing on fiction as fact, the price UK dogs must pay for the insular island mentality.

M/Lover
ZTP is a TEMPERMENT test for protection work (of which 'foriegn' dogs need to be KC registered)

I ask all those, WITH ANY WORKING BREED, who are interested in this topic to completely dismiss M/Lovers comments above as false.

To repeat what I originally said. EVERY working breed, in the whole of Europe, MUST pass a fit for breeding test before the breed registration club issues a fit for breeding licence for that dog.

To add to what I wrote, in all fit breeding tests the dogs must pass multiple tests, one of them is the working test for whatever the individual breed was bred for. As far as I know ALL working breeds must pass a temperament test in Europe.

In the case of the German ZTP test for Dobermanns there are (as stated) numerous elements to the test, in all countries all protection breeds must also pass a breed working test >ONE< part of several elements.

One of the elements is a temperament test, what a pity a temperament test is not carried out here, any KC dog with any temperament whatsoever can become registered with KC here.

Purpose of  the ZTP temperament test & temeramemnt test throughout all working breeds in Europe

Temprament Test Purpose
Unfit for Breeding
Aggressive, shy and nervous dogs cannot be declared fit for breeding.

Dobermann Verin Munich (Dobermann Club Germany)

The FULL ZTP fit for purpose test
http://www.dobermann-review.com/info_library/Articles/ZTP_rules_revised.pdf

.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 12:39 GMT
I can see no relevance to couragous, protection dogs and the health problems the RSPCA are talking about

Pain due to hereditory disorders can cause stress, anxiety, aggression and generaly a very low quality of life, that which KC should strive for. It is relevant to ALL breeds, not just protection dogs.
.
Hidden post (unapproved)
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 13:10 GMT
The Finish all breed mentality test

ALL I know about this is that is a non compulsory test for all breeds, they apparently do get a certificate this then added to the dogs show qualifications. The site is interesting as there are photos of the all breed temperament test.

http://theoscar.net/temperamenttest.htm
.
- By mastifflover Date 09.04.11 13:49 GMT

> M/Lover
> ZTP is a TEMPERMENT test for protection work (of which 'foriegn' dogs need to be KC registered)
>
> I ask all those, WITH ANY WORKING BREED, who are interested in this topic to completely dismiss M/Lovers comments above as false.


Try asking the people who make the rules for the test to tell you my comments are false!

The ZTP is for PROTECTION trained dogs.
First there is a conformation check,
Then the dog is tested for:
Group Encounter (to evaluate the dog's self-confidence, fearlessness, temperament, obedience, and threshold of stimulation.)
Gun Sureness
Tie-Out
Attack out of the Blind
Courage Test

It is very important that the helper wear a protective suit consisting of pants and jacket. The stick used for threatening shall not be too bendable.

The FFB test is for non-protection trained dogs:

The dog should attempt to thwart the attack by going out with strong, forward movement (without avoidance behavior) toward the helper who is making verbal and physical threats.

In either case, if a dog doid not show signs of attack/defense towards the stranger, it would be classes as 'not fit for breeding'. Lovely!
- By mastifflover Date 09.04.11 14:06 GMT
Woops, should have included a link to the ZTP rules!

Here it is.

Gun-shy dogs are unsuitable for breeding.
The dog is allowed to bite the helper in locations other than the arm.

In the FFB:
is for shy, nervous, or timid dogs, which cannot be rated suitable for breeding
So, a Mastiff (for example) that has all it's health tests, is physically sound and conforms to the breed standard physically, but walked AWAY from an attack/threat would be classed as 'unfit for breeding'. However,  if the same Mastiff, lunged at the face of a stranger approaching with a stick - it would pass.
I know which dog I'd rather have in my home and our society and it is NOT the one that will readily attack a stranger!

There is nothing I can see, in the above tests, that would make our dogs HEALTHIER.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 14:32 GMT Edited 09.04.11 16:14 GMT
Try asking the people who make the rules for the test to tell you my comments are false!

What you pasted is NOT the ZTP at all. You cant get a fit for breeding license on any one element, the dog has to pass all elements, thats the rules.

You pasted the working test, the working test is ONE ELEMENT, the working test, you cannot attempt the working test until the dog has passed all the other elements & if you passed a working test that would now allow anyone to get a breeding license. You completely left out all other elements of the test.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 14:42 GMT Edited 09.04.11 16:13 GMT
In the FFB:
is for shy, nervous, or timid dogs, which cannot be rated suitable for breeding

AGAIN - Thats not the fit for breeding test (FFB cited), that is the temprament test element. In case you have not realised, that comes before the working test and is independant of all other parts of the test.

I could be wrong but doubt it, temprament tests are throughout europe in all working breeds, any dog showing the above characteristics would not get through a tempramemnt test.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 14:45 GMT
So, a Mastiff (for example) that has all it's health tests, is physically sound and conforms to the breed standard physically, but walked AWAY from an attack/threat would be classed as 'unfit for breeding'. However,  if the same Mastiff, lunged at the face of a stranger approaching with a stick - it would pass.

In the FFB:
is for shy, nervous, or timid dogs, which cannot be rated suitable for breeding
So, a Mastiff (for example) that has all it's health tests, is physically sound and conforms to the breed standard physically, but walked AWAY from an attack/threat would be classed as 'unfit for breeding'. However,  if the same Mastiff, lunged at the face of a stranger approaching with a stick - it would pass.


If a Dobermann did that in any national fit for breeding test it would be classed as unfit to breed, doubt Mastiffs would be treated any different.
.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 09.04.11 15:14 GMT Edited 09.04.11 16:15 GMT
There is nothing I can see, in the above tests, that would make our dogs HEALTHIER.

Different countries have different mandatory health tests on the specific breed.

Example with Dobermanns in Austria is the mandatory health tests are, HD - PHTVL/PHPV - vWD, as well as a mandatory DNA test. On top of that they have all the dentition, jaw & conformations etc

In the DV ZTP only HD, dentition, jaw, conformation are mandatory.

The link you gave above is not the German ZTP, it is the United Dobermann Club test, USA. Their mandatory health tests are:

the following health documents must be provided: OFA hip certificate (HD-1 or 2 are acceptable substitutes), CERF results, Michigan State thyroid panel results, VetGen DNA vWD results, and echocardiogram (performed by a cardiac specialist) results

http://www.schutzhund-training.net/ZTP/udc-ztp.html
.
- By Nikita [ru] Date 09.04.11 16:08 GMT
I do not see that the ZTP fit for breeding test is a wholly suitable test, I'm afraid, just going by the link you've posted, Dorf.

Using the dobermann as an example; I saw no reference to health testing in that document, with the sole exception of HD, which is not a big problem in dobes.

What is a big problem is dilated cardiomyopathy; and many dobes (my Soli included) have this disease for some time before it begins to physically affect them. She is still the picture of health, 9 months post-diagnosis and 9 yrs old.  Without testing for it, affected dogs could be certified fit for breeding by the ZTP test and be bred from, passing on the genes for this horrendous disease (which already has somewhere in the region of a 60% mortality rate in dobes).

Likewise vWD - an affected dog could pass the test and be bred from and pass the genes on, or potentially pass the genes on and suffer serious complications during the birth.

In other words, a test that does not include health testing as part of its criteria will not do anything significant to alleviate the health problems of breeds - and, as mastifflover pointed out, even if the dogs did pass the test as it stands, it would not remove problems such as excessive wrinkling in some breeds, cancer rates, entropian etc (dogs could easily be operated on and then pass).

A fit for breeding test needs to cover all the bases.  I do agree with them in principle and I think that an emphasis on the dog's physical capabilities and the owners being required to show that they are aware of the dogs' need and abilities is important - but not the ZTP test as it is.
- By mastifflover Date 09.04.11 18:23 GMT
Mastifflover said:

>In the FFB:
>shy, nervous, or timid dogs, which cannot be rated suitable for breeding
>So, a Mastiff (for example) that has all it's health tests, is physically sound and conforms to the breed standard physically, but walked AWAY from an attack/threat would be classed as 'unfit for >breeding'. However,  if the same Mastiff, lunged at the face of a stranger approaching with a stick - it would pass.


Dorf said:

> Thats not the fit for breeding test (FFB cited), that is the temprament test element.


The in the next post:

>if a Dobermann did that in any national fit for breeding test it would be classed as unfit to breed, doubt Mastiffs would be treated any different.


So, do you agree or not that the FFB (fit for breeding) test includes a temperment test, in which, the dog must show it will attack/defend against a 'threat'? And without passing ALL elements of the test, the dog will NOT pass and gain a 'fit for breeding' certificate.

"The FFB Protection phase:
.....The dog should attempt to thwart the attack by going out with strong, forward movement (without avoidance behavior) toward the helper who is making verbal and physical threats......."

= A dog that avoids the threat will not pass the test.

Avoiding conflict, IMO, is not a character FLAW and does not equate to a nervous or shy dispostition, it is a lack of displayed protective-drive. (you can't rule that dogs that don't show protective drive under false conditions would not actually protect if they or thier owner were physically asaulted for real, as opposed to a mock, non-contact assault).
- By Dorf [gb] Date 10.04.11 06:46 GMT Edited 10.04.11 06:59 GMT
I do not see that the ZTP fit for breeding test is a wholly suitable test, I'm afraid, just going by the link you've posted, Dorf.

Using the dobermann as an example; I saw no reference to health testing in that document, with the sole exception of HD, which is not a big problem in dobes.


If that was the first link to the official DV ZTP paper I cannot access it anymore, it keeps saying broken file. Your right that only HD is mandatory in the German ZTP, some other countries have additional mandatory. I do not agree that HD is problem free in Dobes, thats born out by the fact that some dogs are above the maximum permmitted HD scores & cannot be entered for ZTP or other euro contries equivilent.

That does not mean they have a hip score which cause the individual dog problems if its physical activities were those it would undergo in its working role but they will not permit licensed breeding & registration of litters from such a dog because if they did it MIGHT transmit & escalate over several generations and end up with a breed with common HD problems, taken for granted here with many breeds. The ZTP is for the breed itself, not for the individual kennel, owner or individual dog, they do show bias in judging on the basis of "if some doubt exists fail it" which is beneficial to the breed in the long term.

There have been many dogs which are slightly above the max permmitted but which are otherwise good to excellent dogs. If 2 owners/breeders want to mate them they can apply to DV, DV then goes through the recorded ancestory of both & makes a decision of their findings, but, they do not take chances. I suppose the same applies to all countries except UK.

I think some level of HD will be in Dobes here, but the fact is I hardly ever see Dobes here these days, in one place I go I saw one at a distance last year & it's the first one I have seen there, I've been going regular for over 30 years, I dont see many dogs there though, most times I visit non or maybe one at distance. In another place I have never seen another Dobe & going there for, well, again almost 30 years & I do see several dogs there most times I go, although I use a large wood area nearby & hardly ever come accross another dog.

I have occasionaly come across them in 2 other places which are more dog populated & the conformations lack uniformity, I noticed they were all heavy & stocky and the males especially had long backs showing some saddleing, very low drive & showed little more than a semi indifferent interest in their environment. The last time I saw UK Dobes together was when I went to some show (NOT to watch a show) I just wanted to see the conformations etc & maybe see what imports were around, they lacked so much uniformity it was untrue, again the long backs, again massive bulk & gait was not the light agile gait they are supposed to have.

I think they lack so much conformation uniformity that if they were tested under the ZTP rules non but direct imports would get through on conformation alone. I would sceptical at the very best that if they attempted even 1/4 the drive levels & activites of a Euro dog many would display HD & I would imagine a lot more skeletal probs in the long term for the individual dog, even now I remember vividly those long backs & v heavy 'lumbering' type dogs. That said I suppose they have been mixed with some Euro dogs since pet passport, no idea what that may or may not have done for or against the breed. I have been told that 30% Dobes born here end up in rescue, appalling for such a rare breed/non popular breed.

So, to relate that to ZTP health & all other Euro FFB tests I think you overlook the importance of the stringent conformation tests.
.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 10.04.11 07:04 GMT Edited 10.04.11 08:10 GMT
I forgot & past editing time.....>>AND<<< ZTP has the additional benefit, I would say a VERY big benefit, that breeding Dobes in Germany & in Europe is a painstaking, time consuming thing to do, its hard work and the feedback I get from very experienced breeders is that the build up to ZTP tests is allways stressfull even for the most experienced with a history of breeding reliably consistant dogs, a lot of work goes into a dog to get it through & many years of breeding all gone for what UK breeders would class as stupid reasons.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 10.04.11 07:35 GMT
I do not see that the ZTP fit for breeding test is a wholly suitable test, I'm afraid, just going by the link you've posted, Dorf.

Using the dobermann as an example; I saw no reference to health testing in that document, with the sole exception of HD, which is not a big problem in dobes.

What is a big problem is dilated cardiomyopathy; and many dobes (my Soli included) have this disease for some time before it begins to physically affect them. She is still the picture of health, 9 months post-diagnosis and 9 yrs old.  Without testing for it, affected dogs could be certified fit for breeding by the ZTP test and be bred from, passing on the genes for this horrendous disease (which already has somewhere in the region of a 60% mortality rate in dobes


I'm especially interested in what vets HERE are saying about CM I dont have time for a lengthy reply (that applies most of the time). I took on a Dobe owner with a UK Dobe for training back in summer of 2003, it was a Roanoak, they had allways had Roanoak. The dog prior to the one in 2003 showed vWD towards his death. About 2 years ago I bumped into the owner again & he told me that the dog had been diagnosed with CD and could die any moment or live into to old age.

I asked my vet about it & he simply said no known cause, testing is pointless as they can test clear to day & diagnosed as positive tommorow & there is nothing can be done about it in terms of prevention, including breeding, he simply concluded that nothing is known about it interms of what causes it, if its genetic or if its not, it is also what the owner of the affected Roanoak was told by their vet.

Thats in contradiction to German breeders, CM tests have been quite standard with many breeders for years, twice a year I think, I know they only show its not there at them  time but as far as I understand it they all are a part of German research on it, I will find out more later but testting for this is normal for all Euro breeders regrdless of what is mandatory, its allways been that way, they have, LITERALY, no concept at all of dogs not being health monitored, it's simply beyond their comprehension, it would be a new concept to them, Ill get back but pass me some info on what vets say about CM here that you know of here, links below to 3 random selections of German breeders & their approach to health testing.

v oman
http://tinyurl.com/3urj7cw

v aurachgrund
http://tinyurl.com/5ss59j

V Ferris
http://tinyurl.com/3lyv8oa

.
- By Dorf [gb] Date 10.04.11 07:47 GMT
M/Lover quote
In the FFB:>shy, nervous, or timid dogs, which cannot be rated suitable for breeding

>So, a Mastiff (for example) that has all it's health tests, is physically sound and conforms to the breed standard physically, but walked AWAY from an attack/threat would be classed as 'unfit for >breeding'. However,  if the same Mastiff, lunged at the face of a stranger approaching with a stick - it would pass.


M/Lover quote
Dorf said:>Thats not the fit for breeding test (FFB cited), that is the temprament test element.

M/Lover quote
The in the next post:
if a Dobermann did that in any national fit for breeding test it would be classed as unfit to breed, doubt Mastiffs would be treated any different.


M/Lover qestion
So, do you agree or not that the FFB (fit for breeding) test includes a temperment test,

Dorf
Yes I aggree

M/Lover qestion
in which, the dog must show it will attack/defend against a 'threat'?

Dorf
No thats not the case, any sign of aggression in the temprament test and the dog is failed.

M/Lover qestion
And without passing ALL elements of the test, the dog will NOT pass and gain a 'fit for breeding' certificate.

There are two levels of pass, 1A & B, the former means the dog is pronounced in its working role & all other are within the requirements the later mean the dog is not pronounced
in its working role but is suitable for showing (conformations, looks etc)
.
- By Nikita [ru] Date 10.04.11 09:29 GMT

> I do not agree that HD is problem free in Dobes, thats born out by the fact that some dogs are above the maximum permmitted HD scores & cannot be entered for ZTP or other euro contries equivilent.


I didn't say it was problem free - I said it was not a big problem.  It is there, certainly, but not as prevalent/severe as other breeds.

> I asked my vet about it & he simply said no known cause, testing is pointless as they can test clear to day & diagnosed as positive tommorow & there is nothing can be done about it in terms of prevention, including breeding, he simply concluded that nothing is known about it interms of what causes it, if its genetic or if its not, it is also what the owner of the affected Roanoak was told by their vet.


Your vet's a wee bit behind in some respects.  With the echo yes, they can be clear today and develop it tomorrow, it is very much a snapshot in time test but still useful.  Dogs can be diagnosed as 'equivocal' - showing very early signs but not yet with the disease proper.  My Paige is equivocal, I expect her (as does Soli's cardiologist) to develop DCM either late this year or early next year.  There is also the option of a holter test - a 24-hour ECG, these can pick up DCM very early and are relatively cheap too.

The cause is thought to be genetic at present but it is multifactoral.  One gene has been found that accounts for 85% of DCM cases, the other 15% is still being researched.  There is a test for the 85% culprit though, and the decent breeders are already making use of that.

Testing is not pointless though - especially with the equivocal band of dogs, if an equivocal dog is identified then it can be removed from the breeding program, as can dogs with occult DCM (Soli).  Not ideal but it's a start, and as DCM is thought to be genetic in cause in dobermans then such things definitely have their place if they are used regularly.  Annually is the general recommendation here and in the US but twice annually would be better because of the tendency for it to develop quickly - certainly in dobes it is downright vicious in its progression rate compared to other breeds.  Generally speaking once the dog goes into heart failure, average lifespan for dobes is 6 weeks whereas other breeds could live for years.

Once dogs are diagnosed there are things that can help - Vetmedin being the best drug at the moment, it's what's keeping Soli in the occult phase with basically no deterioration when she should have gone into heart failure, by all accounts, in November.  She is having the holter to check for abnormal beats - these are what often cause the sudden death syndrome your dobe owner spoke about, when the dog has runs of abnormal beats.  We know she has them but not if she has more than 2 or 3 at once - if she does then she can have anti-arrythmia medication to control them and prevent fainting episodes or sudden death.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 10.04.11 11:09 GMT
Dorf.

You say you have seen few Dobes in the UK, (I'm assuming out walking) and seen some at some show.

Was this a championship show where a quality Representative sample of dogs would be seen.

Anywhere else and you cannot make a judgement of Doberman in the UK.

Certainly your description bears little resemblance to whet I know of the breed and I have been closely associated with the breed through friends for some 20 years.

As for working drive in the guarding breeds, in most cases in our society it is advantageous to have this tempered down.

Most dogs go to pet homes and many will be unable to deal with very high drive dogs.  I would say that such high drive dogs should only be bred and selected for in the military Police etc and are not suitable for the average home.  So these breeds should have a steady temperament, be alert, and not show signs of nervousness or aggression, but showing high reactivity and willingness to defend would not be considered 'good' temperametn and make dogs suitable for breeding from in the UK.

We have had quite a few European imports to the UK, and sadly in some cases the results have not been positive, with dogs that are far too high drive and ready to agrees.  Others have made very good use for positive traits, and still been able to retain a manageable temperament.

Why would knowledgeable breeders need someone telling them what is satiable and what is nto (other than health).  After all they re the ones who live with and know the temperament of their dogs and if ethical which should or should nto be bred from.

Just because we do not undergo formal temperament evaluations does nto mean we do not temperament test our breeding stock and choose breeding partners based on sound temperament and where appropriate working ability.

Certainly the Dobermans and Rottweilers I meet at shows have sound friendly temperaments, but will also show natural watchfulness and guarding behaviour when needed at home.

After all it is in no good breeders interest to breed dogs that new owners cannot live with.
- By Polly [gb] Date 20.04.11 17:15 GMT
So is what you are saying is that all breeds should be tested to see if they display the natural instincts to do the job they were bred for? i.e. gundogs working on shoots, GSD guarding, collies herding sheep? If so how will you test the terriers? Most were bred to kill rats, and other vermin or how about the hounds like the borzoi should we let them chase wolves?
- By cobus [gb] Date 14.02.12 20:35 GMT
The last two posts raise very valid points with regard to temperament testing - it is simply a minefield and people's opinions on what is correct vary so much that agreement on a standard would be impossible.
Here's my take, as someone who has owned, bred,and worked Dobermanns for thirty years: Health testing is fine when simple hereditary patterns can be defined, such as Von Willibrands disease, and should be implemented. When it is not so clear, as in heart disease and hip dysplasia etc, one has to be wary of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Reducing the gene pool for whatever reason is rarely a good thing. Using older studs is wise, as especially nowadays, studs are often widely used before they have developed fully either mentally or physically.
As for ZTP, as far as I can see it is basically a test of the trainer's skill. I have done some training for Schutzhund with my dog - it is a great sport. The dogs should be confident, playful and fit rather than overly aggressive, but of course some are aggressive and this is often enjoyed by their handlers. However it is so time consuming (which is why I have given it up) that always relatively few people take part in it. To use something like this as breeding criteria would restrict the breeding pool even more. This would apply also to specialized tests in other breeds.
To improve the overall quality of the pedigree dog, a scheme must be simple and easily policed. There was a suggestion made by a columnist in Dog World recently which I think is a really good idea:
Champions are always influential in every breed. The suggestion is that after winning a third CC, every potential champion should be examined by a vet, and certified as being, in phenotype, sound physically and in temperament, before its title is granted.
Oh, I know there would be disputes, but it would at least go part of the way to shutting up the anti-show, anti-pedigree zealots.
Up Topic Dog Boards / Controversial Stuff / The KC has no "fit for breeding" test for all working breeds

Powered by mwForum 2.29.6 © 1999-2015 Markus Wichitill

About Us - Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy