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- By LJS Date 22.10.10 07:16 GMT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11602721

Have they gone far enough though ?
- By suejaw Date 22.10.10 07:23 GMT
Just seen it on the news now.. Didn't go into great detail. BUT its a start and it is highlighting to people where not to go, hopefully.
- By Ells-Bells [gb] Date 22.10.10 07:25 GMT
Any new regulations would be a good thing and it as a step in the right direction, but as I read it, it's only a proposal so when it would start may be years away.
- By pat [gb] Date 22.10.10 08:20 GMT
Once through the consultation period should be introduced in March 2011 it cannot be soon enough.
- By Ells-Bells [gb] Date 22.10.10 08:24 GMT
Actually that's very good - lets hope it all goes through and then they can add/amend as required.
- By LJS Date 22.10.10 08:54 GMT
Then lets hope the rest of the UK follow their example
- By Dill [gb] Date 22.10.10 13:11 GMT
But there is opposition to the Welsh Assembly Government's plans which would also see small breeders with just a few dogs being required to be licensed and face checks

This isn't about stopping big Puppy farmers, it's about licensing for all- a very different kettle of fish.   More people to inspect will not mean that the bad ones get caught, there's no money in the pot to cover the extra bodies/work needed - unless the license fees are high enough to cover it.  All it means is that the worst cases will be missed while the likes of you and me get hassled because it's easier and we're not aggressive.  No matter the boxes will be ticked and will LOOK as if a great job is being done.

Looks like I've had my last litter.  I refuse to pay out even more money to support this system, when BYBs and pet breeders who spend no money beyond buying the bitch and the cheapest food won't give a stuff about legalities.  I breed from 1 bitch in perhaps 6 years, do everything above and beyond what's called for and I will have to pay for a license because large scale puppy farmers won't care for their 'stock' properly.

The laws are already in place to deal with this problem, the whit and wherewithal to stop it is missing - that's down to lack of implementation of the existing laws by local councils.  No amount of changes in Welsh Assembly will alter that.  Now though, there will be even more to inspect, meaning the big Puppy Farms can slip through the net.
- By pat [gb] Date 22.10.10 16:34 GMT Edited 22.10.10 16:37 GMT
Here is a link to the Welsh Assembly Government together with the proposed new legislation and the consultation.  It is worth reading.  I hope it becomes law without too many changes. Although there is something they have missed in this proposal and will be used as a loophole by the dealers, so I will be contributing to the consultation to point this out.

http://wales.gov.uk/consultations/environmentandcountryside/consultationdogbreeding/?lang=en

- By Brainless [gb] Date 22.10.10 17:56 GMT
Point is if the existing laws were applied puppy farming (as in awful conditions and over-breeding) could be stopped. 

Commercial breeding of course would not, but at least conditions would have to be met and stock cared for properly which would make it unprofitable.
- By Dukedog Date 22.10.10 18:35 GMT
I suppose it's too much to ask of vets, as they are a business after all, and make money from sick animals.
The government could make a poster outlining the problem with puppy farms and the like, and have them hanging from the walls of every vetinary practice, warning the public not to buy from such places, a bit like what they have done with no smoking signs.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 22.10.10 18:50 GMT
How about:

"Commercial breeding practices can seriously damage a pups health and wellbeing"
- By Dukedog Date 22.10.10 18:53 GMT Edited 22.10.10 18:58 GMT
That's the kind of thing with pictures of sick pups behind bars, similar to the one shown above from the bbc.
I'll put it to Elin Jones.. Brainless said....LOL
- By JeanSW Date 22.10.10 21:36 GMT

> The laws are already in place to deal with this problem, the whit and wherewithal to stop it is missing - that's down to lack of implementation of the existing laws by local councils. 


Totally 100% correct.
- By sillysue Date 23.10.10 07:25 GMT
I suppose it's too much to ask of vets, as they are a business after all, and make money from sick animals.
The government could make a poster outlining the problem with puppy farms and the like, and have them hanging from the walls of every vetinary practice, warning the public not to buy from such places, a bit like what they have done with no smoking signs.


The trouble is Dukedog that many vets also make money from the puppy farms. I have the name of the practice and the vet that did the first vaccination of my GR ( rescued from a Welsh puppy farm ) Of course it was only the most basic vaccination and didn't cover all the things that puppies are normally covered for, but we can't expect the puppy farmers to pay a penny more than they need. This vet must have done many of these for all the pups leaving this pup factory and was probably making a good living from it, I really can't see him putting up notices in his surgery and losing all this filthy money.
- By Olive1 Date 23.10.10 07:37 GMT
puppylove campaign already have some brilliant downloadable posters on their web site. Ive printed off loads. Have put them up at work (over the hedgehog info!) and also plan to stick some up in two big pet superstores where they allow people to place puppy ads.
- By Dukedog Date 23.10.10 08:37 GMT

> puppylove campaign already have some brilliant downloadable posters on their web site.


That's excellent work, if more people start to do more to help rid of these dreadful places, it might just happen 1 day.
- By tooolz Date 23.10.10 10:43 GMT
Dont hold your breath anyone.

These places have vets in their pockets and with the massive financial cuts to local authorities there will be no one to implement these objectives.
Until the next general election it will be care homes v libraries....... dog wardens v playgroups etc etc.

Little hope that resources will be put into checking those establishments.
- By Dill [gb] Date 23.10.10 10:47 GMT
As I said :::::(

The only people who will be affected by any of this is the hobby breeder who already spends out (in both time and money) on the best stud, all the health tests and care, socialisation and feeding, not to mention showing to make sure the parents are of the best quality possible. 

those who breed for profit won't be affected at all :(
- By pat [gb] Date 23.10.10 16:31 GMT
Because a requirement of the new legislation in Wales will include anyone who has three female breeding dogs as a requirement for licensing, this will include for the first time many breeders who have not by law required to be licensed previously, such as some hobby breeders and back yard breeders.  To say that hobby breeders should not be included is not an adequate reason to be against the introduction of the new legislation.  If a person is breeding to a high standard with good animal welfare and husbandry then they should have nothing to fear of being licensed and inspected. 

The ones that should be fearful are the licensed or unlicensed commercial breeders that are exploiting their breeding dogs by having too many dogs to cope with witou staff, by not attending to their dogs welfare needs, by subjecting their dogs to live in poor conditions and producing too many puppies.  Selling these puppies to dealers and pet shops, often sickly and unidentifiable, with often inacurate paperwork and vaccination certificates.  Any legislation that improves the welfare of these dogs and their puppies has to better than what exists at present.

Yes, I do have concerns that it will be poorly implemented by Councils as it is now and that some Councils will be in denial that a problem exists as they have over this last year or so.  But the groups that have campaigned and written to the Welsh Assemby have been listened to and for that at least we must be grateful because not only has Elin Jones listened but she has taken appropiate action by granting the finance to all Welsh Councils to look at dog breeding and in doing so has proposed this new legislation.  She has had to accept that what campaigners have been saying is true, that dogs are being allowed to be kept and bred from in appalling conditions, this is something that some Councils in Wales have firmly denied when they have licensed sub standard premises but they have been proven wrong.   To get this result after all the years of campaigning has to be welcomed, by all of us that have stood firm in the belief that eventually we will be heard.  Now it maybe as others have suggested that Councils will be poorly staffed and any new regulations will not be adhered to by the breeders and due to lax inspections that everything will remain the same. Yes, this is possible that it will not be as effective as we hope but I feel that with all the effort that has gone into its introduction that the Minister will ensure that the Councils who will be responsible for enforcement will do so.  This will not be the end of our campaigning, it is just the start of a new beginning.     
- By Brainless [gb] Date 23.10.10 17:44 GMT Edited 23.10.10 17:48 GMT

> they should have nothing to fear of being licensed and inspected. 
>
>


they could find themselves being required to apply for, and possibly being refused 'change of use' to business premises (and the associated extra rates) or a kennels.

What is a breeding bitch.  Until recently I had three entire bitches, now one has been spayed, but the youngest has yet to have a litter, so can't be considered a breeding bitch until she has proved herself fertile, but I am pretty sure some authorities consider any bitch over a year old as a brood or maybe even younger?

I have a home in which I keep my dogs and occasionally breed a carefully reared litter in a domestic setting.

>Because a requirement of the new legislation in Wales will include anyone who has three female breeding dogs as a requirement for licensing,


This was the requirement Nationally until a few years ago, when the breeding and sale of dogs welfare Act came in, and the puppy farms and back yard breeders were happily breeding then.

That act requires that bitches have a year between litters,a re identified, puppies identified and records kept, so what happened to policing and enforcing this?
- By Dukedog Date 23.10.10 18:08 GMT Edited 23.10.10 18:13 GMT
Do you know, for all their good intensions I should imagine puppies welfare is so far down on their list of important things, that it probably won't be able to be enforced sufficiently enough, lots will slip through the net. Specially if there will be cut backs from Government too.

We really need to hope that the GP learn themselves and stear clear of these puppy farms.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 23.10.10 21:15 GMT
It's the only thing that wil work, people not wanting to buy. 

Bit like the battery egg, though they still make a ncie livign thank you, more peopel who can afford to want better..
- By Dukedog Date 23.10.10 21:27 GMT
People would still sacrifice buying cheaper food for themselves, so the dog quite rightly doesn't go without, so in the publics mind I'm sure if the cruelty factor in these farms alone was publicised more often this would be enough to put them off buying a puppy farm pup.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 23.10.10 21:36 GMT Edited 23.10.10 21:38 GMT
What I meant is that as with Eggs, the free range ones cost more to produce and so well bred puppies. 

For some people the bottom lien will be price,a dn Good breeders can't afford to undercut the bad breeders, though in less common breeds there is often very little difference in the selling price, (but of course huge difference in rearing costs and keeping the breeding stock).

Of course a Battery egg will taste like an egg though less tasty and still be fit to eat, and that's that. 

A puppy farm bred pup may not have as good a temperament due to poor imprinting/socialisation (not as tasty) but dumb luck will mean that many will remain in reasonable health (or owners not realise their poor health was due to the way they were bred), so the owner thinks they got a good deal. 

Some may never have had a better quality puppy and not know there is a difference in practical terms for them.  they also often prefer not to think about the poor Mum and siblings used for breeding and what their lives are like as they feel they have 'saved' their pup.

Saddest of all are thsoe who feel that because they want 'just a pet' that they don't need a well bred lovingly reared typical pup with good quality parents with health tests as that's 'just for showing'.

That is the main job for most dogs and every owner deserves a quality pup and every pup a quality home.
- By Dill [gb] Date 23.10.10 22:34 GMT
Spot on Brainless!

>The ones that should be fearful are the licensed or unlicensed commercial breeders that are exploiting their breeding dogs by having too many dogs to cope with witou staff, by not attending to their dogs welfare needs, by subjecting their dogs to live in poor conditions and producing too many puppies.  Selling these puppies to dealers and pet shops, often sickly and unidentifiable, with often inacurate paperwork and vaccination certificates.  Any legislation that improves the welfare of these dogs and their puppies has to better than what exists at present.


How can I put this so you will understand?

WE ALREADY HAVE THE LEGISLATION IN PLACE!

It has NOT worked.   Councils, for whatever their reasons, vet these places and PASS THEM!   This is a fact.

This new legislation is simply a means of making more money out of dog breeding for the councils, make everyone you can think of buy a license and make plenty of money, while at the same time making it look as if they are doing great things while actually changing nothing.  Classic distraction tactics and it's working too as some people are completely taken in by it.
- By Dukedog Date 23.10.10 22:43 GMT
I don't think there's any need to be so bullish, really.
- By Dill [gb] Date 24.10.10 00:40 GMT Edited 24.10.10 00:44 GMT
Not being bullish, I'm just not distracted by the promises.  For a start the money isn't there to implement the changes and it's no good pretending any different.  I certainly won't be putting money into the pot by buying a license to breed, I'll have my dogs neutered first.

I would absolutely LOVE to be proved wrong.

I doubt this will happen though.  There were the same high hopes the last time legislation changed.  Sadly that was the only thing to change :(

This is typical of what happened in many areas of civil life under the last government.  Loads of legislative changes, but no consideration to the implementation of the changes, which lead to things getting worse instead of improving.  But it looked great on paper and for a long time the public were fooled, now they are paying for it.
- By mountaindreams [gb] Date 24.10.10 08:06 GMT
How can I put this so you will understand?

WE ALREADY HAVE THE LEGISLATION IN PLACE!

It has NOT worked.   Councils, for whatever their reasons, vet these places and PASS THEM!   This is a fact.

This new legislation is simply a means of making more money out of dog breeding for the councils, make everyone you can think of buy a license and make plenty of money, while at the same time making it look as if they are doing great things while actually changing nothing.  Classic distraction tactics and it's working too as some people are completely taken in by it.


Dil u are so right. And I hate to say it but puppy farms are making so much money they are not against backhanders. In the last few months there have been many meetings in Wales re all of this legistration BUT only certain people get invites...those already known in dogs.....half these people are breeding large amounts of dogs themselves and then come back and say they are helping out. If you are breeding 50 bitches a year I am sorry u are not the right person to be proposing things. They are so chuffed that breeders are going to have to microchip!!! So what alot of us already do. I'm sorry but people with that many breeding bitches and they dont class themselves as puppy farmers.

Under all this I will be needing to get licensed and my ownly problem with that is the money. My last litter the vets bill was £3500 so where do people propose I also find the money for a license.

Here in Wales we have a charity who is going to Ireland picking up dogs including pregnant bitches and then selling them to puppy farms and no one will do anything about her cos everyone is scared of her. It is a disgrace and people give this so called charity money to do it.

I live in carmarthenshire, well known for its puppy farms and those people drive brand new cars, go on holidays and do whatever they please whilst the dogs in their care suffer. So wrong BUT I dont feel u will ever stop puppy farming. You would have to have different departments all following each other up so that one department couldn't pass a place for a back hander. These puppy farmers have a great life style they are not going to give it up for anyone. As mentioned by others there are vets here known for being puppy farm vets and again it is big business.
- By summer [gb] Date 24.10.10 08:52 GMT
how wonderful to see someone else from Wales with the same views as me...I was starting to feel alone! I "gatecrashed" one of the meetings the council held with the licenced breeders as it was the only way to see what was going on. At NO TIME has there been a public meeting between the council and ordinary show/breeders. Soon we are all to be classed the same yet believe you me from what I heard at that meeting we might as well come from different planets as the way we keep our dogs and rear our stock is poles appart. Perhaps we do have nothing to fear but I don't WANT to be lumped together with that lot and all treated the same! I may have many bitches here as mine have a home for life irrespective of whether or not they breed and into their old age...5 generations of one  bitch line....but very few litters...THAT is what one should be judged on or else people will simply get rid of the old and the barren (as they have no choice). 10 animals here could mean 1 litter a year but a puppy farmer makes sure it means 10 litters (or even 20) and I know EXACTLY what you are talking about with the "rescue" as I have brought it up before she takes in all the surplus stock "no questions asked". What about a kennel running half a dozen stud dogs? They have the potential to earn far more in a year than 3 bitches. Most of the farmers have 3 or more sheepdogs (mostly bitches) will it apply to them ? With government cutbacks there is no way on this earth the small band of people working for the council who have to already police the commercial breeders, horse fairs, sheep and cattle markets and every "pets at home" etc selling a tropical fish can spread themselves to check every home that has 3 animals to see if they are dogs or bitches. The logistics hasn't even been thought of and there is no money for more staff. We all want these filth closed down ESPECIALLY us living here who breed and show quality animals as one has to take a deep breath before saying our address to a would be puppy buyer on the phone such is the reputation they have given us. Yes bring in microchipping for all but why not compulsory KC registration...compulsory health testing according to breed...and most importantly MAKE IT AGAINST THE LAW TO SELL TO ANY THIRD PARTY  i.e pet shop or trader and that would sort it out.
- By Dukedog Date 24.10.10 08:58 GMT
The only way then would be to educate the public somehow. If the supply of dogs can not be stopped then the demand to buy from these places needs to stop, no customers no business.
- By suejaw Date 24.10.10 09:24 GMT
Have no idea but how much do they charge for a licence? Is it per bitch you own or one flat fee?
Is it just council granting them or is it a collective group?
- By mountaindreams [gb] Date 24.10.10 09:42 GMT
Hi Summer

This is why I have not joined the ABS with the KC again. I joined and left after discovering half the puppy farmers on there. One of them is awful and she finds it funny that she got 2 weeks notice to tidy up!!! She got on the scheme and knows they can't do an on the spot visit. People here who are breeding so many litters a year are on the scheme and get away with it as no limit from KC they just state one litter from each bitch per year. So 50 bitches 50 litters and you can be seen as better than the resy of us not on the scheme.  In my opinion you want to be accredited then do the health tests for your breed all of them not just the compulsory ones and if they don't pass then don't breed.

The councils and licensed breeders here are a joke and kidding themselves.

If we are talking of the same rescue have u seen their website explain why they are not a registered charity...get imagination and people fall for it and give them money.

Where are you based in Wales? Like yourself I have generations here and so the dogs mount up. Maybe they won't charge for spayed bitches but then how they gonna know which are and which aren't cos if you need vet proof we all know the puppy farmers feed certyain vets and pay for their lavish holidays. I went to an eye clinic about 6 mths ago and in walked this lady with a dog for testing well didnt I feel sick when I enquiried what breed...yes I can't help being nosy......and yes it was a labrador. I had 5 labs with me and they certainly didnt look in any way similar. She was selling pups for £550 just £100 less than mine!!!

I love Wales but I HATE the way dogs are treated here. Pieces of meat to make money out of and then dump. There is an area near here that the dog wardens collect from every Friday pm as reports come in of dumpings....the puppy farm scum dump their waste there every week.  I have visited a puppy farm near us and they argued whether the pups were from one mum or another and what day were they born oh not sure it was raining though!!! Dogs kept in portacabins with windows blacked out. Any breed u like. Heart breaking and if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes I would never have believed it was that bad. We actually left with 2 older girls that day that they were going to shoot, they are now in loving pet homes. Killed me to hand over £100 each for the 2 dogs BUT a small price to pay for their lives. Gorgeous girls aged 5 and 6 years old, one had never got pregnant and one had had a section.

I agree with u why are there no meetings for the likes of us as show breeders....answer cos they aren't interested what we think we don't pay wages.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 24.10.10 10:10 GMT
Here is the Act that had been law for Eleven whole years!!!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1999/11/contents

Some of the main points:

"A licence is required if a person whose bitches give birth to 5 or more litters in any 12 month period, as it is assumed they are carrying on a dog breeding business.

NB. There are restrictions on the number of litters a bitch may have, and each bitch must be over a year old and can only have one litter in each 12 month period.

During an inspection the following areas will be assessed:-

Record keeping including:-

identifying marks (tattoo/microchip, kennel club registration)
worming and vaccinations
matings
whelpings
oestrus
numbers of puppies
sales records
Housekeeping including:-

accomodation
construction
cleanliness and disinfection
bedding
exercise areas - condition and use
kitchen facilities
first aid provision - human and animal
food and water - storage and provision
isolation facilities
staff training and facilities
Guidance and model conditions for local authorities and their authorised officers and veterinary inspectors for the licensing of breeding establishments available from:

The British Veterinary Association
7 Mansfield Street
London
W1M 0AT"

List of Animal Welfare Acts:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/

Lots and lots of laws exist, only the will and the money to implement them doesn't.

No way do I want to be licensed and included in with such puppy producers and why should I finance the council to do nothing when I am pumping money into my hobby which includes breeding occasionally.
- By mountaindreams [gb] Date 24.10.10 10:43 GMT
and when they come to inspect are they going to be clean and infection free, clothes and all or can we ask them to strip and be dipped at the front door. After all I have dogs to protect from infections and they may have just come from a local puppy farm!!! So what protection are they offering my dogs.
- By suejaw Date 24.10.10 11:17 GMT

> A licence is required if a person whose bitches give birth to 5 or more litters in any 12 month period


I have to question should anyone be producing that many litters in a year? Apart from trying to make money how can this benefit any breeder or breed? Say you have 10 bitches, 5 of them have a litter in one year, why would you do that? What are you trying to achieve? Is it really needed?   Morals and values here seem to be of a high question mark to me!!
- By Dukedog Date 24.10.10 11:23 GMT

> I have to question should anyone be producing that many litters in a year? Apart from trying to make money how can this benefit any breeder or breed? Say you have 10 bitches, 5 of them have a litter in one year, why would you do that? What are you trying to achieve? Is it really needed? Morals and values here seem to be of a high question mark to me!!


I think this is what the argument is about suejaw, proper breeders don't role pups out like a factory production line, but puppy farms and the like do. It is these premises that have no morals, just in it for far away holidays, fast cars and the like.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 24.10.10 11:24 GMT
Your like me are speaking from the perspective of breeds that have average size litters.  I find looking after one or rarely two litters a year and following up their owners through the first year or so quite enough to be going on with.

There are of course breeds like some of the toys where ones and two's are the norm, puppies die quite late into rearing etc. 

With some of these breeds some breeders deliberately have two litters at a time in case one bitch has a problem and can't or won't rear.  There are also families who have more than one breed.

That is why I think the FOUR litters and your still hobby and FIVE your commercial was arrived at. Four litters of a toy breed may be fewer pups than one litter of a large breed.

Also remember it isn't per year but a fifth litter in any 12 month period would get you into needing a License.
- By suejaw Date 24.10.10 11:27 GMT
Its not just the squalid conditions of puppy farms you have people breeding this many bitches in a year..There are people who treat their dogs well and keep them in great conditions that also are seen to be breeding large numbers of litters each year.. You still need to question why too.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 24.10.10 11:32 GMT

> There are people who treat their dogs well and keep them in great conditions that also are seen to be breeding large numbers of litters each year.. You still need to question why too.


For money, and that is not against the law, it is perfectly legal to breed commercially and these people are required to be licensed and are required by law to have fit conditions.

Much as I would prefer there not to be any commercial breeding (as the bottom lien is profit not the dogs or breeds welfare), if it does go on then it goes on in proper humane conditions (you can't legislate for love though :)), and this means enforcing the law. 

Eleven years later and we still have puppies produced against the law.
- By Dukedog Date 24.10.10 11:39 GMT

> Also remember it isn't per year but a fifth litter in any 12 month period would get you into needing a License.


I think that is an awful lot to put 1 bitch through that.
- By summer [gb] Date 24.10.10 12:01 GMT
it is very simple to tell the difference between one of us and a puppy farmer.  MONEY.........They are commercial, pure and simple. Anything that doesn't pay is disposed of. Non breeders and bitches who have caesars. As soon as they are too old again they are got rid of and replaced with a newer model (no particular blood lines the cheaper the better). Everything standing there has to earn its way. Cheap food, no health tests, no stud fees, no registrations/microchips or puppy packs....... gone at 6 weeks........maximum profit.
On the other hand year in year out I run at a loss (ask my husband!!). It must be one of the most expensive hobbys going if one takes into account showing....equipment/entries/petrol etc too. There is no way on this earth the odd litter even covers the vet (worming etc) or food never mind a profit.. Yet we still do it because we care about the breed we are in and want to make a difference. Normally it is ONE breed too ......not everything that sells well!! If the chosen breed is hard to breed it is quite possible to need several bitches to mate in order to stand a chance of just 1 litter to carry on your line and fulfill a long term breeding plan, especially if colours come into the equation too. That is why the actual amount BRED is a fairer method. Yes the 5 litter rule has been around for ages and the normal law abiding pet/show breeder would adhere to this. The commercial breeders ARE licenced already..that's the problem They are PROUD to say they have 40 breeding bitches and as long as the premesis is not made of wood and they can tick various other boxes they are passed every year as ok. The actual DOGS are not so important. A very different inspection as to the one done for an AB. The out and out REALLY bad ones who breed in horse boxes etc will carry on regardless, no matter what the law is, as you have to catch them first. I still maintain that if you had to dealer to come and pick them up they would have nowhere to sell them. I think it unlikly that many puppy farmers ARE AB's as they don't even register their pups with the KC never mind join the scheme. It would be a good thing if they did as at least they would have an independant inspection which they would find a totally different kettle of fish to a council one!
- By Brainless [gb] Date 24.10.10 15:46 GMT

> I think that is an awful lot to put 1 bitch through that.


No not one bitch, one breeder, same address or member of their immediate family.
- By Dukedog Date 24.10.10 15:49 GMT
Gotcha.
- By pat [gb] Date 25.10.10 08:27 GMT
Having read all the threads it appears that quite a number of posters have information that could be useful regarding dog breeding/puppy farming in Wales or anything else of concern that goes on there or elsewhere in the UK.  Any information is always gratefully received and can be by pm or email puppyalert@btinternet.com
Here is the web site http://sites.google.com/site/puppyalert/
- By Mystyfyed [gb] Date 25.10.10 12:07 GMT
I am also in Wales, hello to fellow countrymen (or ladies) I have read this thread with great interest and would like to take up a few comments and offer some hopefully helpful input. I will be honest and admit my interest is because I am anti puppy farming, I am NOT anti decent people breeding decent puppies who consider the dogs welfare.

The kennel club allow puppy farmers to register in excess of 60 bitches, some in Carmarthenshire have 100+ registered...... is it not time anybody with KC reg pups formed a group and joined together to lobby the KC to stop allowing this?
The upshot of this would be your good quality pups would be worth more money so the good work you put in would be rewarded, supply and demand! if something is harder to find it is worth more.

There have been comments made about Vets etc not taking action and making money from it,living in Carmarthenshire I can assure you if they did take action or show any sign of disaproval these puppy farm pups would never even see a vet nor their mothers.

The new WA regulations( although not perfect) are a massive step in the right direction, comments have been made that they are not being enforced now........ how can they if nobody is willing to come forward and report things? The LA cannot drive down every farm track, so reporting instances of cruelty etc is of the utmost importance. The WA assembly will now make the LA take action.

Also a very important part of the act now says "a license can be revoked instantly" this is new and will cause massive change.

I don't see the act affecting small decent breeders but it will massively affect the large scale units that bring breeding puppies into dis-repute.

I hope I haven't caused offence to anybody, but if you do know of things going on then please feel free to contact me, I give my word your user name will stay with me and only the information that will NOT allow you to be identified passed on, if you can't act we WILL do our best to gain further evidence so prosecutions/ exposures can be brought. Our group covers the whole of the Uk, England, Ireland (South+North) not just Wales, altho Wales is a priority at this moment. Our actions in stamping out Puppy farms can only be of benefit to small breeders.
- By Dill [gb] Date 25.10.10 13:40 GMT
The kennel club allow puppy farmers to register in excess of 60 bitches, some in Carmarthenshire have 100+ registered

Have I missed something?  As far as I'm aware the KC have no registration of breeding bitches :confused:  Do you not mean local councils?   The KC register puppies bred and their pedigrees, there is a facility for some health tests to be recorded but not all. 

The new WA regulations( although not perfect) are a massive step in the right direction, comments have been made that they are not being enforced now........ how can they if nobody is willing to come forward and report things? The LA cannot drive down every farm track, so reporting instances of cruelty etc is of the utmost importance. The WA assembly will now make the LA take action.

There was copious photographic and video evidence of horrendous conditions endured by both bitches and pups given to local councils after films were aired on Channel 4, the councils concerned chose not to investigate or proceed against the puppy farmers concerned.  How do you explain this?   The local councils know who their licensed breeders are, they also know from their inspections which ones are bad, yet still do nothing.

I don't see the act affecting small decent breeders but it will massively affect the large scale units that bring breeding puppies into dis-repute.

I'm sorry but as stated earlier, I believe that this is a naive expectation, it will be far easier and more lucrative for councils to license and inspect small breeders as there are far more of them and they are usually more accessible, quicker to inspect too as it's just one small property as opposed to a large farm with buildings spread out and up a small farm track - if they can find it!  Small hobby breeders are also less likely to prove aggressive and intimidating such as the ones on the films about puppy farming in Wales :( :(

I really wish I were wrong about this, but I don't think I am, history has proved otherwise :(
- By Mystyfyed [gb] Date 25.10.10 15:13 GMT
"Have I missed something?  As far as I'm aware the KC have no registration of breeding bitches   Do you not mean local councils?   The KC register puppies bred and their pedigrees, there is a facility for some health tests to be recorded but not all". 

perhaps I should reword that as to: The KC knows that one person has over 100 bitches registered in the one name and could prevent this, it is down to the LA to license them as "breeders"

"There was copious photographic and video evidence of horrendous conditions endured by both bitches and pups given to local councils after films were aired on Channel 4, the councils concerned chose not to investigate or proceed against the puppy farmers concerned.  How do you explain this?   The local councils know who their licensed breeders are, they also know from their inspections which ones are bad, yet still do nothing".

This filming is what has put pressure on the WA to make this new legislation.

I'm sorry but as stated earlier, I believe that this is a naive expectation, it will be far easier and more lucrative for councils to license and inspect small breeders as there are far more of them and they are usually more accessible, quicker to inspect too as it's just one small property as opposed to a large farm with buildings spread out and up a small farm track - if they can find it!  Small hobby breeders are also less likely to prove aggressive and intimidating such as the ones on the films about puppy farming in Wales 

I can assure you our group will be constantly bringing evidence of LARGE scale puppy farming to the attention of LA's we do have people "on the ground". If the Welsh LA's don't act we will bring this to the attention of the WA and the media.

Can I add that it has been pointed out to me that unfortunatly I missed from my first post, we do cover Scotland!! apologies for missing it out.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 25.10.10 15:22 GMT Edited 25.10.10 15:25 GMT

> The KC knows that one person has over 100 bitches registered in the one name and could prevent this, it is down to the LA to license them as "breeders"
>
>


The number of dogs registered with the kennel Club as owned by anyone has nothing to do with how many puppies or litters are bred.  According to KC records I own 21 bitches and 16 dogs.

Of those listed two bitches are deceased (and I informed them), I own a further five (of these 3 are veterans of 7 - 13 years of age and all spayed), and own no males at all.  That is 30 dogs and bitches listed to my ownership whose owners never bothered to transfer ownership to themselves.

Of course the kennel club knows how many litters a given breeder has registered and in my opinion (as they do ask if you have a License on form I, though not on the on-line system) and should report anyone who breeds five or more litters in 12 months if they do not have a License, or at very least refuse registration until they have proof of LA License.

LA's will go after the easy target of the hobby motivated/occasional breeder, as it is easy money, lots more License fees from low volume breeders who are likely to be law abiding and co-operative.
- By Dill [gb] Date 25.10.10 15:46 GMT
This filming is what has put pressure on the WA to make this new legislation.

And yet it failed to motivate the local councils in whose scope it lay to investigate and prosecute. 

If the WA has the powers to "make the LA take action. " why didn't it simply do so?   It would have been far quicker and less expensive than secret consultations - I was never aware of them at the time they happened - and changing legislation.

Without the extra money from licensing and inspecting the small hobby breeders, there is no money to effect any of the new legislation.  Every council in Wales is facing cutbacks in funding I doubt they will have any more for this initiative than they did last year, and probably a lot less.

You say we can report puppy farms to you, yet you don't say who 'YOU' are, nor have you said which group you represent??
- By Mystyfyed [gb] Date 25.10.10 16:27 GMT
Being new I didn't realise that I was allowed to post any sort of link/advert on here, but am more than willing to say I am an active member of Puppylove, who filmed and supplied the films to the BBC and ITV, the BBC did give us credit for the film with banner.

Because it failed to motivate the local LA's is why we aimed at the Welsh Assembly, the WA have taken notice of our film and the resulting public pressure, as Wales is evolved it does not have it's own Parliment, but now the WA is trying to fix that with this new legislation, which I should ad only concerns Wales.

The WA can now make the LA's take action under the new bit " Licenses can be revoked" the councils biggest reason to us for lack of action was " the law does not allow us to revoke a license"

I am not saying this is perfect but it is a good step forward to end puppyfarming

I can assure you the LA's will not specifically target small private breeders as "the easy option" as the  size of any resulting fine would not make it financially viable to do so.... Money rules the council as well as the puppy farmers.

Small Welsh breeders have nothing to fear, if as you state your breeding decently and responsibly

Sombody has already stated, "if your doing nothing wrong they can inspect you all they want and they can do nothing"
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