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Up Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / Bitch gone aggressive 6 months after litter
- By Kellydew40 [gb] Date 12.09.17 18:54 GMT
My bitch had her first litter 6 months ago and has just had her first season since, she has now become aggressive towards my male and other dogs, this is so out of character for her as she's normally the softest dog you could meet, I'm concerned as she's already got my male, will spaying her calm her down as I'm getting her spayed, if not what can I do to have my princess back as rehoming her is not an option, thank you, please no negative comments
- By Nikita [gb] Date 13.09.17 08:04 GMT
If this is out of character then I would get her to the vet for a thorough checkup.  Sudden onset aggression (or indeed any sudden behaviour change) usually points to a medical cause.  it may just be the season - others will be able to advise on that better as I don't breed - but I'd want to be sure there's nothing else underlying that's been brought on by the stress of a litter and then a season.
- By onetwothreefour Date 14.09.17 10:46 GMT
Yes, a full vet check, blood work up and thyroid.

What breed of dog?  When did it start - before the season, during or after the season?
- By Dolph [gb] Date 19.09.17 10:36 GMT
The same happened to a bitch I had she was a working cocker, I was advised to spay her which I did and the aggression got worse and worse. I still find this hard to speak about, she was lovely to humans but she would turn on her dog family who she'd previously been best mates with and try to kill them the end came when she very almost severed the front leg of one of my Cockers, she tore through a vein and was ragging him like a rat, his leg was a mess and we had to make the heart breaking decision to have her pts.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 19.09.17 16:54 GMT

> she was lovely to humans but she would turn on her dog family who she'd previously been best mates with and try to kill them ... and we had to make the heart breaking decision to have her pts.


Out of curiosity, before having her pts have you considered a somewhat less heart breaking decision to re-home the poor dog, as in letting her live happy and healthy life as an only dog? I sometimes wish these pts decisions had legally enforced limits...
- By Dolph [gb] Date 19.09.17 22:05 GMT Upvotes 2
I sometimes wish these pts decisions had legally enforced limits...

I hope you never have to make a desision such as this!
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 20.09.17 03:18 GMT

> I hope you never have to make a desision such as this!


For me personally there would be nothing to decide in such situations, pts is simply not an option for a healthy dog (incidentally why I would always support Dog Trust and never RSPCA).
   

But you haven't answered the question. Which actually could be quite relevant to the OP, as they have similar problem to yours and would like to keep their dog rather than re-home.
- By MamaBas Date 20.09.17 06:54 GMT
Spaying means the female hormones will be affected and actually could make her more aggressive, not less.    Similarly, only the opposite!, with the male, removing the male hormones should (again) calm him down.    I'd not rely on spaying doing this.   However, spaying might make her less aggressive as she'd not be bothered by her hormones around every season!!    I always spayed by retired bitches in any case so I didn't need to confine tham twice a year for 3 weeks, as much as anything else.

I'd not noticed any of mine being more aggressive after having had a litter.
- By claire_41 [gb] Date 20.09.17 07:28 GMT Upvotes 6

> <br />Out of curiosity, before having her pts have you considered a somewhat less heart breaking decision to re-home the poor dog, as in letting her live happy and healthy life as an only dog? I sometimes wish these pts decisions had legally enforced limits...


Actually I think it was a brave and sensible decision. Why pass the problem on to someone else? Something is amiss when a dog / bitch change so dramatically. I couldn't live with myself if it happened to another dog after re-homing.
- By Nikita [gb] Date 20.09.17 08:13 GMT Upvotes 10
A dog who was previously very friendly becoming aggressive to such a dangerous degree is not what I'd call healthy - it's not just physical health that's important.

Plus, as claire has said, you've then got the responsibility part to consider: is it morally acceptable to pass such an aggressive dog on?  She may not have done anything to humans at that stage (or ever) but would have represented a massive risk to other dogs in general, and a huge ask of anyone who might consider adopting her.  Not having other dogs is one thing; having to walk such a dog is quite another as we all know there are plenty of idiots who will let theirs run up uninvited.  And yes, she could be muzzled, but she could still hurt other dogs with a muzzle on and still very much experience the stress of such an encounter.  Finding an appropriate home for such a dog is no easy task.  She'd have required extremely careful management for the rest of her life and not many people want to take on a dog that difficult - and often the ones that do and are able to provide that level of care already have other dogs.  I'm used to dealing with a dog that cannot be near other dogs or people when out but I would not want to take on one with this severity of aggression, even if I didn't have other dogs.
- By Dolph [gb] Date 20.09.17 08:19 GMT Upvotes 4
Thank you Claire, the decision wasn't a spur of the moment thing and it still haunts me but she was too unstable to rehome (which we had looked into). Our girl had a full mot including thyroid, bloods etc but sadly she wasn't wired right, her eyes would turn black if you were quick enough to see this and then she'd attack badly injuring our other dogs, she wasn't happy with a muzzle on and what sort of life would that have given her.
- By jogold [gb] Date 20.09.17 10:48 GMT Upvotes 4
This is something only a responsible owner would do and yes I have had to do this too.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 20.09.17 12:53 GMT

> Actually I think it was a brave and sensible decision. Why pass the problem on to someone else? Something is amiss when a dog / bitch change so dramatically. I couldn't live with myself if it happened to another dog after re-homing.


No, if the problem is that the dog is aggressive to her dog housemates yet lovely to humans etc, re-homing the dog into a family where it would live as an only pet is not passing the problem on to someone else. It is solving the problem. Killing the dog would also be solving this problem of course, but rather a different solution as you understand. And personally, there is nothing brave or sensible about it given the scenario.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 20.09.17 13:03 GMT

> she wasn't happy with a muzzle on and what sort of life would that have given her.


Plenty and plenty more dogs do not like to live with other dogs. So they live as only dogs in the family. They live absolutely beautiful full lives. Sorry, but that's the truth.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 20.09.17 14:18 GMT

> it's not just physical health that's important.


I agree, it's not just physical health that is important. And majority of dogs have health issues big or small; very few of us animals are 100% healthy. I'm sure you know perfectly well this is not what I meant by saying that healthy dogs should not be destroyed.

Rather, what is generally meant by this statement is that a dog who can be allowed to live a healthy life should not be destroyed. Perhaps this is achieved by supporting the dog's health with medicine. Perhaps it is achieved by placing the dog in a rural home away from busy life. Perhaps it is achieved by keeping the dog as the only pet. No difference whatsoever. If the life is possible, it should not be taken away.

> Finding an appropriate home for such a dog is no easy task.


Of course. To kill the dog is much easier.
- By satincollie (Moderator) Date 20.09.17 15:14 GMT Upvotes 13
AS you have no way of knowing the exact details of the dog concerned please refrain from being so judgemental and uncaring about an others hard thought out decisions. I am sure it was not an easy "Kill" as you would have it.  Some health issues can be lived with all be it in a different environment or with different management,others cannot however much we wish it otherwise
- By poodlenoodle Date 20.09.17 21:21 GMT Upvotes 10
Pretty much every single dog attack we read about in newspapers or see on the news is by a rehomed dog with previous known issues but the prior owner couldn't bear to pts so they rehomed instead and passed the problem on. All too often the dogs go from home to home in a matter of months as the new owners find out what issues they have. People who are really experienced rarely want to own one antisocial dangerous dog so they tend not to get the best homes. "The dog has been previously aggressive with other dogs" is not the same as "the dog has previously almost removed a limb from another dog". Lots of dogs, particularly older bitches, might get sick of others and snap at and nip another dog. Almost removing a limb, unless we're talking a large bull breed attacking a small breed, must have taken a sustained attack from a dog who did not heed the cries of its victim. 

If you have a dog like this and don't want to PTS the responsible thing to do is to rehome all your other, safe, dogs andd manage the aggressive one yourself.
- By malwhit [gb] Date 21.09.17 06:03 GMT Upvotes 6
I have always only had 1 dog PTS for temperament issues and it was a heartbreaking decision. After months of deliberation and discussions with vets and behaviourists, i decided it had to be done when his aggression developed from dogs to people.

It annoys me when people and organisations decry others for having their dogs PTS - in genuine cases, people do it because there is no other option.

I was condemned for not giving him to breed rescue, but 15 years later I still think I did the right thing. It saddens me looking on the breeds FB page to still see owners having similar issues, and for a rare breed there are high numbers in rescue or for sale as adults.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 21.09.17 06:25 GMT

> AS you have no way of knowing the exact details of the dog concerned please refrain from being so judgemental and uncaring about an others hard thought out decisions.


This is not a court of law where one must collect plenty of evidence before giving their opinion. On an internet forum we respond to what people write in their posts. And the post I responded was crystal clear in what they were trying to say.

The poster did not say "The same happened to my bitch, spaying didn't help, unfortunately because she also had extremely poor health and many other issues the quality of her life was already very poor and so we decided to pts".

Instead the poster said "The same happened to my bitch, spaying didn't help, so we decided to pts".

  
Thousands of dogs are killed in pounds every single day because precisely this approach is taken. Not that long ago another member shared a story on this forum, of how they adopted a dog (incidentally also a working cocker) which was scheduled to be pts in the pound as their behaviourist concluded the dog was fear aggressive. Imagine what would've happened if the pound warden did pts the dog, and then came on this forum and told us about it. Imagine the replies he would have received? Hails of "how responsible" "how brave" "you did the right thing" "how sensible" "you didn't pass the problem on anyone else"!...

What happened in fact was the dog got adopted, and once taken out of the situation which was causing it distress it turned out to be an exemplary lovely companion. 

   
I believe the advice which the poster was giving to the OP - and make no mistake, it was an advice - was wrong. I will not "refrain" or say otherwise because it may hurt the advisor's feelings, sorry.
- By flattiemum [gb] Date 21.09.17 08:40 GMT Upvotes 2
Therefore if you had met this lady with her aggressive dog you would have forgiven it had it almost severed a limb from your dog?

I'm sure she thought long and hard about this before making her difficult decision, her dog I would suggest had more than 'fear' aggression as in your example of a successful rehoming.
- By Nikita [gb] Date 21.09.17 08:48 GMT Upvotes 9
A dog that becomes this aggressive, this quickly, is not healthy.  Health is not just about physical wellness but mental as well, as I said before, and a dog that performs such a sustained attack that it nearly amputates a limb and continues attacking after that damage is done is neither a healthy dog nor a safe dog to rehome.  And it's completely incomparable with dogs sat waiting in pounds.  We're also not talking about a dog sat in a pound that a behaviourist has deemed dangerous for whatever reason that may or may not be true or an overreaction on the behaviourist's part; we're talking about a dog who has done real, quantifiable, severe damage to another dog.  No maybe, no 'this might happen' - it did happen.

Maybe the right home could have been found but all things considered, how long would that have taken?  Probably months at a minimum, to ensure the new owners knew exactly what they were taking on and were fully capable of managing such a risk.  How long would this extremely dangerous dog have to have been managed around the other dogs in the household then, while that home was saught?  One mistake could cost another dog its life and the stress of living with that would be horrendous for all concerned.  How long do you persist in such a situation before you have to give up anyway?  Is it fair to potentially inflict months (or possibly years) of misery and stress on everyone if the right home never materialises?  Quality of life is not just about medical problems, mental stress is a very real and damaging issue.

Sometimes, euthanasia is the kindest option for all concerned including the dog with the issue, and it is NOT easy.  It is heartbreaking, soul destroying agony and IMO the hardest decision anyone could ever have to make for a dog.  It's hard enough when you've got a dog with a medical condition that you know isn't going to get through it - I've just made that decision myself.  That was awful because he still had fair quality of life.  To have to make it for a dog who is physically well but mentally completely the opposite is undescribeably hard and painful.  To dismiss it as 'easy' speaks volumes about your lack of experience of such a situation.
- By poodlenoodle Date 21.09.17 09:11 GMT Upvotes 2
Are you really comparing a dog with no known prior incidents which a shelter behaviourist had decided had fear aggression but had obviously nonetheless passed for adoption with a dog who had IN FACT attacked several times and during one incident almost severed another dogs limb?

You do realise a dog arriving in shelter with a history of attacking and seriously injuring another dog would be PTS without even seeing the behaviourist. The shelters know their responsibility even if some owner don't seem to.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 21.09.17 09:46 GMT

> a dog who had IN FACT attacked several times


Attacking in fact is an indication that a dog has been pushed in the corner - in the vast majority of cases. What matters is whether taking the dog out of the situation of stress would help the issue.  In vast majority of cases it does.

> You do realise a dog arriving in shelter with a history of attacking and seriously injuring another dog would be PTS without even seeing the behaviourist. The shelters know their responsibility even if some owner don't seem to.


Not all the shelters. That's the whole point. No matter how many people do the wrong thing, it can still be wrong. No matter how many people hail the wrong thing as "right", it can still be wrong. Only a myriad examples  from history to learn about.
- By poodlenoodle Date 21.09.17 14:33 GMT Upvotes 4
Well we shall agree to disagree. My dogs matter enormously to me and there is no chance I would knowingly fob them off on someone else after they became vicious. I would have a lot more respect for your opinion if you'd said you would keep the vicious dog and rehome the rest. You can feel you have the moral high ground all you like but the majority of dog attacks on humans amd other dogs have a human stood somewhere at the back who decided pts was wrong but a rehoming wasn't.
- By satincollie (Moderator) Date 21.09.17 15:43 GMT Upvotes 2

> I believe the advice which the poster was giving to the OP - and make no mistake, it was an advice - was wrong. I will not "refrain" or say otherwise because it may hurt the advisor's feelings, sorry.


Once again judgemental nowhere did the poster say I advise you to do what I did. 
Should she not share her experience?
Is it never ever to be considered  that the dog concerned was seriously ill/ unbalanced and her responsibility meant that she took the only responsible decision she could . As I said without knowing the finite details there is no way of knowing that for certain.  Do you have that knowledge?
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 21.09.17 15:47 GMT
Yes we'll have to agree to disagree. It is wrong to kill a dog who is lovely to humans, but can no longer tolerate living in the same household with other dogs, without giving it a chance to live as an only pet.

And no, majority of dog attacks on humans do not have "a human stood somewhere at the back who decided pts was wrong but a rehoming wasn't."
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 21.09.17 15:58 GMT

> nowhere did the poster say I advise you to do what I did. 


I wonder why they changed all those images of cool looking men on cigarettes packs, and replaced them with cancer ridden lungs. Do continue to kid yourself that the only way to give advice is to tell people "I advise you" :smile:

> Should she not share her experience? Is it never ever to be considered  that the dog concerned was seriously ill/ unbalanced and her responsibility meant that she took the only responsible decision she could . As I said without knowing the finite details there is no way of knowing that for certain.  Do you have that knowledge?


This is not a court of law where one must collect plenty of evidence before giving their opinion. On an internet forum we respond to what people write in their posts. And the post I responded to was crystal clear in what they were trying to say.

The poster did not say "The same happened to my bitch, spaying didn't help, unfortunately because she also had extremely poor health and many other issues the quality of her life was already very poor and so we decided to pts".

Instead the poster said "The same happened to my bitch, spaying didn't help, so we decided to pts".

They shared their experience.
- By satincollie (Moderator) Date 21.09.17 19:03 GMT Upvotes 2
You side stepped the question, do you have that knowledge?
Good job its not a court of law that you feel so fixated about as I am sure your lack of a direct answer would be quite telliing.
- By Dolph [gb] Date 21.09.17 19:07 GMT Upvotes 2
Instead the poster said "The same happened to my bitch, spaying didn't help, so we decided to pts".

I didn't say this at all....you need to read back what I wrote!! Your comments have really upset me, I hope your pleased with yourself.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 21.09.17 20:00 GMT

> Instead the poster said "The same happened to my bitch, spaying didn't help, so we decided to pts".


> I didn't say this at all....you need to read back what I wrote!! Your comments have really upset me, I hope your pleased with yourself.


Yes you did, please don't get upset because this is what you said:

> The same happened to a bitch I had she was a working cocker, I was advised to spay her which I did and the aggression got worse and worse. I still find this hard to speak about, she was lovely to humans but she would turn on her dog family who she'd previously been best mates with and try to kill them the end came when she very almost severed the front leg of one of my Cockers, she tore through a vein and was ragging him like a rat, his leg was a mess and we had to make the heart breaking decision to have her pts.

- By monkeyj [gb] Date 21.09.17 20:01 GMT

> You side stepped the question, do you have that knowledge?  Good job its not a court of law that you feel so fixated about as I am sure your lack of a direct answer would be quite telliing.


Hmm, I thought I answered it twice. This is not a court of law where one must collect plenty of evidence before giving their opinion. On an internet forum we respond to what people write in their posts. And the post I responded to was crystal clear in what they were trying to say.

Are you sure you aren't the one who is getting fixated?
- By satincollie (Moderator) Date 21.09.17 20:31 GMT Upvotes 5

> <br />Hmm, I thought I answered it twice. This is not a court of law where one must collect plenty of evidence before giving their opinion. On an internet forum we respond to what people write in their posts. And the post I responded to was crystal clear in what they were trying to say.


Good side stepping again no is the answer you do not have the knowledge and have you even taken into account the further post giving more details of health tests carried out and research into rehoming ?

As to the court of law business you brought it up, you repeated it before I mentioned it. :lol:

So unless people post experiences with every last detail ad infinitum you are free to be as judgemental and make any assumptions you want ? Seems that you apply a guilty if not proven to be  innocent train of thought to the process of replying to posts (your court of law analogy remember)

The poster shared her terrible experience she made no recommendation either way you have put your own spin on it with emotive language and didn't imply she was in the wrong you stated she was.
Obviously you have an opinion which could have been expressed in a much better way and would have been accepted more readily had it been so.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 21.09.17 20:42 GMT

> The poster shared her terrible experience she made no recommendation either way


Nope, the poster did not simply share her experience. She shared her experience and the course of action which she took to address it. And it is that course of action which I believe to be wrong.

> Obviously you have an opinion which could have been expressed in a much better way and would have been accepted more readily had it been so.


I fully accept that not everyone is as well spoken as you appear to be. But that's life, we are all different and each of us tries to do their best.
- By Tommee Date 21.09.17 21:01 GMT Upvotes 3
Unless one has had this happen to oneself, you cannot make a qualified statement. I've never bred a litter, so have refrained from giving an opinion or statement
- By poodlenoodle Date 22.09.17 08:06 GMT Upvotes 3

>But that's life, we are all different and each of us tries to do their best.<


Presumably including Dolph and the decisions she made regarding her aggressive vicious dog. Pity you couldn't say so sooner eh.
- By monkeyj [gb] Date 22.09.17 14:56 GMT

> Presumably including Dolph and the decisions she made regarding her aggressive vicious dog. Pity you couldn't say so sooner eh.


Doesn't make that decision any better though. And neither do your epithets for the poor animal I'm afraid to say.
Up Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / Bitch gone aggressive 6 months after litter

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