Chez_swa

>He said that the bleed behind the eye was caused by the head collar. How could he possibly know that? He was assuming cause and effect through association. The bleed could have been caused by a number of things.<

Denis
You are quite right he could not 'know' that, even if he saw a vet the vet could only do the same as the owner, which was to deduce from the situation as a whole, try and remember that that about 99.099% of the things we do we do it from deduction and not scientific fact, but halter types, all types are notorious for many things, one of them is rubbing around the eye, that area has thin skin and is highly sensitive compared to other facial tissue.

You can find out for yourself now attention has been drawn to it, count how many dogs you see with a halter type on it has the strap close to the eye of the side where the dog is kept to heel, then think how many small but frequent little jerks that dog might get from the strap for each hour worn and start 'thinking' in those terms. Apart from that I will PM you a link from someone who is far more an expert on halters, I would never use one, never have and never would.

Chez_swa

>Tell me how keeping a dog from pulling on a lead with a normal collar is less strenuous than pulling on a head collar? <

Denis
I can tell you that more study has been done in this area than what I am aware of with halters, this suggests, and I am convinced, that as much damage is done by a dog pulling on the lead than as is done by halters, probably because more dogs are on collars and leads than dogs on halters, see Hallgren below, I have a copy of his studies here which I got from Anders Hallgren in 2002.

You are missing the point I think, you are doing very little except punishing the dog all the time and you should certainly ask your trainer when is the dog going to respond to whatever it is you are supposed to be being taught, anyway, I have sent a PM with the halter observations on and below is the massive 91% findings of damage to dogs caused by pulling on a lead.

One question to you, I have answered yours to a reasonable degree. Why is it that I have to point things out when you are going to some kind of training class, your trainer should have put all these things under your hat long ago,first lesson, if not then someone here should have told you - I suggest you ask when the rewards can begin as things are...huh .... anyway - blessings.

Anders Hallgren -Back problems in dogs 1991.
P1 - P6.

P1.
In 1991 I studied in an attempt to map frequency of back injuries in dogs. The study comprised 400 dogs and a team of chiropractors.
EDIT.
P3.
There seems to be a connection between how the collar is handled and back problems. Pulling and jerking on the leash affect especially the neck and throat.
EDIT
However, one of the clearest correlation's in the whole study was between cervical (neck) damages and 'jerk and pull'. 91% of the dogs who had neck injuries had also been exposed to jerking and pulling on the lead by the owner or had been allowed to pull hard on the leash for long periods of time.
Authors note: - A very low percentage of the dogs  that had no cervical injuries had been exposed to jerking or allowed to pull for long periods.
EDIT.
P 4
Dogs of different breeds represented by 9 or more dogs of that breed were listed to see if  some breeds were more inclined to back problems. Other dogs were involved.

1. Bernese Mountain dog 2. Mixed breeds 3. Boxer. 4. Cavalier King Charles. 5. Collie 6. Dobermann 7. Flat Coated Retriever 8. Golden Retriever 9. Groenendal 10. Lab Retriever 11. GSD 12. Tervueren.

Back defects as irritation
It's well known that dogs with different diseases easily develop problem behaviours,
pain and consequent aggression etc.

To be fair to the training school, I haven't been for a few weeks but intend to go back soon. My dog's behaviour was already set before we started and the methods they use there which are reward based do not work at home.  I think this is because she knows that when she goes to school she does all the different activities that she enjoys and gets rewarded constantly but I cannot seem to transfer this behaviour to normal walks.  As I said it is my fault that she has always had so much off lead exercise that I think has led to this.  The only walking on lead she does is to the park which is very close to us and intermittently during her exercise when she gets recalled because of approaching dogs or for walking country lanes.  It is impossible to train on the country lanes because I am forever having to pull her in to let cars pass.  Although I try to encourage her to walk to heel to the park, we have only limited success and she point blank refuses the treats that she so eagerly takes during the training classes.  Her reward is to get to the park or woods as quickly as possible so although she shows signs that she knows what to do by returning to my side when I stop and wait, she will still continue to pull as we walk on.  Even though the park is less than a minute away it can take me at least 15/20 minutes to get there and all the time she is getting more and more frustrated and so am I.

I have a six month GR puppy who I am trying to train not to pull as he is already very powerful.  Personally, I find using a normal harness gives me better control than a collar - I haven't tried any of the head collars on my puppy because my older dog (now 13) hated them and never got used to them.  Of course, they have probably changed a lot in 13 years :-).

One useful training hint I received this time which may help other people with pulling dogs is to hold the lead behind me, across my back - ie if the dog is on your left hand side, place the lead behind your waist and hold in your right hand.  This means that if the dog pulls, you can use your whole body to stop him.  This considerably reduces the pains in your arms and shoulders and as the dog can't get far away from you with this method, he is far less inclined to tear off ahead anyway.  Have to say it seems to be working well for me (pup sits whenever lead is tight cos he knows he can't go anywhere) so thought I would pass the tip on for anyone else who wants to try it.

I have done that, not for a long time now but sometimes I would do that just to rest my arm.  Unfortunately it didn't stop her pulling

Really sorry it didn't work for you Chez - I know just how exhausting it is to have a dog which pulls.  If you haven't tried it for a while, maybe it is worth having another go?  I haven't read all the posts here so apologise if this has already been suggested but if you go to the same exercise area all the time, maybe it would help to go somewhere different if possible (so your dog doesn't pull to get to the usual place) or alternatively do the lead training complely separately from the off lead sessions?

Dennis - why don't you just register in your own name instead of pseudonyms?  

LOKIS MUM (THE ONLY ONE ;) )

lol - Don't worry Margot, as soon as you start reading you know when it's not you even if you don't realise it's denis at first :)

Bless you sister, I will try that but then people will not know who I am unless I sign it Lokis_nun, blessings anyway.

Back handed compliment Margot :D

Oh dear, Denis - you've made such a fool of yourself yet again.  You know nobody on here (anywhere ) takes you seriously but even your last ditch attempts at humour are back firing now :( 

So sad - perhaps you should register as Billy No Mates ...... you never know, someone just might take pity :(